Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

USGA/R&A Distance Insights Project (Updated Feb. 2021)


Note: This thread is 1478 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Posted

On Tuesday, the USGA and R&A announced their areas of interest for further exploration on the “Distance Debate.”

The  proposals are:

Proposal 1: Club length – reduction to 46 inches available as a Model Local Rule (MLR) (Original proposal delivered in 2016 and paused in 2017 due to the Distance Insights Project). Comment period ends on March 4, 2021.
Proposal 2: Update on testing method for golf balls. Comment period ends on Aug. 2, 2021.
Proposal 3: Change to testing tolerance – Characteristic Time. Comment period ends on Aug. 2, 2021.

Read the press release here https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/RSI/distance-insights-2021-docs/DI Equipment Research Areas of Interest Details - 01-02-2021 Final w-logos.pdf

  • Thumbs Up 1
  • Informative 1

  • Administrator
Posted

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2021/02/distance-golf-equipment-research-topics-areas-interest-usga-randa.html

Quote

A review of the overall conformance specifications for both clubs and balls, including specifications that both directly and indirectly affect hitting distances. This review would consider whether any existing specifications should be adjusted or any new specifications created to help mitigate continuing distance increases. It would not consider revising the overall specifications to produce substantial reductions in hitting distances at all levels of the game. A list of club and ball specifications to be reviewed can be found in the official notice.

When someone can find those, please post them here.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, iacas said:

I believe this is what you want From the PDF titled R&A/USGA Research Topics - Areas of Interest. I provided a link in my original post.

Regarding club and ball specifications we will evaluate the following:

• Reduction in the limit within the overall distance standard

• Modification in the limitation of ball efficiency (update to IV)

• Other ball specifications (size, mass)

• Reduction in the performance of drivers: club length and clubhead dimensions (including volume)

• Changes in the clubhead specifications on spring-like effect and moment of inertia, also considering the utilization of radius of gyration limitations

• Production of spin from all clubs from all areas of the course


  • Administrator
Posted
13 minutes ago, MiuraMan said:

I believe this is what you want From the PDF titled R&A/USGA Research Topics - Areas of Interest. I provided a link in my original post.

No, I want "A list of club and ball specifications to be reviewed can be found in the official notice."

What you listed there are not the actual specifications. We need the official notice, and that was sent to the manufacturers.

I'm expecting something more precise, but maybe they're actually that vague.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Ok I found a Document titled "1 February 2021 Notice and Comment" with the following text 

Therefore, as a separate workstream, we have taken the opportunity during the last year to progress our work on some specific topics.

The purpose of this communication is to issue, as a Notice and Comment to manufacturers, three specific proposals for their feedback.

The link to this document is in the document you linked above: The text in there reads Document Link:  Official USGA/R&A Document  


Posted

I honestly don’t agree with any of this. Just a waste of time and eventually money. FFS let them play. Plenty of bogeys are being made on tour. Bifurcation is asinine.

  • Upvote 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
17 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I honestly don’t agree with any of this. Just a waste of time and eventually money. FFS let them play. Plenty of bogeys are being made on tour. Bifurcation is asinine.

I don't know if you have seen this paragraph - But it feels like Bifurcation. I am in the "leave the game alone" camp

Other than the three specific proposals everything else is "research". It seems like they are "fishing" or throwing a lot of stuff out there to get reactions.

We will also evaluate the potential use of a Local Rule option to specify use of a defined subset of conforming clubs and/or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances and/or an enhancement in the balance between distance and other skills. The concept is that a Committee or golf facility would have the option of requiring the use of equipment meeting these specifications or a subset of them. We are seeking feedback from manufacturers and stakeholders on this concept and how any of the above listed research topics could potentially be considered for use as a Local Rule.


  • Moderator
Posted
6 minutes ago, MiuraMan said:

I don't know if you have seen this paragraph - But it feels like Bifurcation. I am in the "leave the game alone" camp

He agrees and thus his comment:

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I honestly don’t agree with any of this. Just a waste of time and eventually money. FFS let them play. Plenty of bogeys are being made on tour. Bifurcation is asinine.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1

Driver: :callaway: Rogue ST  /  Woods: :tmade: Stealth 5W / Hybrid: :tmade: Stealth 25* / Irons: :ping: i500’s /  Wedges: :edel: 54*, 58*; Putter: :scotty_cameron: Futura 5  Ball: image.png Vero X1

 

 -Jonny

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
36 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I honestly don’t agree with any of this. Just a waste of time and eventually money. FFS let them play. Plenty of bogeys are being made on tour. Bifurcation is asinine.

I agree that bifurcation is not the way to go. I personally would prefer, however, that the USGA and R&A worked to make it so that accuracy became as important as distance. Watching them whack it out of the "rough" near the fairway at Torrey Pines made me think that it wasn't as much of a penalty as it might have been had the rough been a good bit longer. Make the bunkers deeper and steeper.


  • Administrator
Posted
Just now, Zippo said:

I agree that bifurcation is not the way to go. I personally would prefer, however, that the USGA and R&A worked to make it so that accuracy became as important as distance. Watching them whack it out of the "rough" near the fairway at Torrey Pines made me think that it wasn't as much of a penalty as it might have been had the rough been a good bit longer. Make the bunkers deeper and steeper.

Accuracy is important. The fairway is worth 60 yards or so over being in the rough. Slightly more at Torrey Pines.

And accuracy is VERY important on approach shots.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 minute ago, Zippo said:

to make it so that accuracy became as important as distance.

Distance is a skill. And the farther you hit the ball the bigger risk of being farther off target. Hitting it 325 is harder than hitting it 250 straight.

  • Upvote 1

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Equipment is not the problem... I am so over the whining about distance. 

The average golf handicap nor average driver distance has not moved substantially in two decades. I do not see the problem... the 0.00001% of golfers (the pro tours) should not be causing this much concern.

There is a theoretical limit imposed by materials that will be reached, it is inevitable. You let titanium out of the box, live with it. You allowed 460cc live with it... no one wants anything rolled back.

Why are we not talking about the issues of course design and agronomy (grass uniformity advances)? Make accuracy an issue by inserting angles back into the game, plant trees and steepen/deepen bunkers.

Why are we not talking about limiting the physical training of athletes?Koepka/Bryson/Dustin physiques vs Player/Hogan/Palmer. Golfers are bigger, stronger, faster and train year round with a STAFF of fitness/nutrition professionals. This is certainly an unfair advantage... 

Why are we not talking about taking away launch monitors, blast motion, and force plates? Players on tour are spec'ed to the micrometer to maximize EVERYTHING. This is another unfair advantage... 

Equipement is the devil because the best 125-250 players in the world are making Pebble Beach and Augusta obsolete... sorry. Lakewood Country Club in Lakewood NJ held the 1896 US Open... the course was made Tour obsolete by the indented dimpled golf ball... why shouldn't we outlaw dimples? 

Things change, the world evolves, golf needs to as well.

  • Like 1

  • Moderator
Posted
5 hours ago, BaggerVM said:

Equipment is not the problem... I am so over the whining about distance. 

The average golf handicap nor average driver distance has not moved substantially in two decades. I do not see the problem... the 0.00001% of golfers (the pro tours) should not be causing this much concern.

There is a theoretical limit imposed by materials that will be reached, it is inevitable. You let titanium out of the box, live with it. You allowed 460cc live with it... no one wants anything rolled back.

Why are we not talking about the issues of course design and agronomy (grass uniformity advances)? Make accuracy an issue by inserting angles back into the game, plant trees and steepen/deepen bunkers.

Why are we not talking about limiting the physical training of athletes?Koepka/Bryson/Dustin physiques vs Player/Hogan/Palmer. Golfers are bigger, stronger, faster and train year round with a STAFF of fitness/nutrition professionals. This is certainly an unfair advantage... 

Why are we not talking about taking away launch monitors, blast motion, and force plates? Players on tour are spec'ed to the micrometer to maximize EVERYTHING. This is another unfair advantage... 

Equipement is the devil because the best 125-250 players in the world are making Pebble Beach and Augusta obsolete... sorry. 

Things change, the world evolves, golf needs to as well.

You seem to contradict yourself (see underlined text), but maybe I’m not catching it right.

As for the bolded text, why is it unfair? To whom is it unfair? All the professional golfers have access to those things...it’s their modern day culture.

Unless you mean these things are unfair to the amateur...it that case, in what sport do not the professionals have all the time, coaching, money, equipment, and research techniques available to them where their amateur counterparts do not? I don’t see that as being unfair to the amateurs, to me that’s comparing apples to oranges because the professionals chose to pursue this as their profession, whereas the amateur did not. That’s a product of choice in that, should one have the aspiration, could not anyone attempt to turn pro should they be willing to invest the time, money, work to get there like all of the current professionals have done in their past? They have worked to be where they are...it’s not unfair to anyone...it’s a natural consequence of work and talent. If the aspiring amateur doesn’t have the talent, then it’s not a “fairness,” issue to be regulated...that’s just life, some are blessed with certain talents and abilities, some are not.

As for the fitness, that’s hard work that anyone can attain if they are willing to sacrifice the time and effort (which they do). That’s available to all, professional and amateur alike, so I don’t see how it’s unfair to anyone. It’s simply a natural consequence of work.

Sports are by nature competitive and not egalitarian, so the idea of trying to make a sport “fair,” for those either unwilling to put in the work or don’t have the necessary talent is by nature unnatural to sports.

With regards to your closing sentence, golf has evolved... is not the equipment and launch monitors, fitness, coaches, and other things product of evolution you were just discussing as being unfair?

I completely agree with you that the distance issue is overinflated and that course design strategies may be a good part of the “solution” for the so called “problem.”

  • Thumbs Up 1

Driver: :callaway: Rogue ST  /  Woods: :tmade: Stealth 5W / Hybrid: :tmade: Stealth 25* / Irons: :ping: i500’s /  Wedges: :edel: 54*, 58*; Putter: :scotty_cameron: Futura 5  Ball: image.png Vero X1

 

 -Jonny

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
1 hour ago, woodzie264 said:

As for the bolded text, why is it unfair? To whom is it unfair? All the professional golfers have access to those things...it’s their modern day culture

I figured he was being sarcastic.

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
23 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I figured he was being sarcastic.

I honestly didn't consider that at all. @BaggerVM, if you were be sarcastic, my apologies 😒

Driver: :callaway: Rogue ST  /  Woods: :tmade: Stealth 5W / Hybrid: :tmade: Stealth 25* / Irons: :ping: i500’s /  Wedges: :edel: 54*, 58*; Putter: :scotty_cameron: Futura 5  Ball: image.png Vero X1

 

 -Jonny

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted

My position on all of this, as briefly as I'm capable of saying it 😉

  • Whatever the USGA/R&A does, fine. There's a difference between not thinking they had to do or should roll back distance and, I don't know, protesting it or not moving on if they do? I lobbied against the flagstick bit in the 2019 rules, even set up a website for it, but then when it was announced I said "okay then" and moved on. I had my chance to share my opinion, and they decided the other way. That's how it is supposed to work.
  • At this point, these are just proposals open for comment. And of those, my thoughts on the three big ones at the top are:
    • Drivers 46": okey dokey. Affects WLD guys mostly.
    • Reduce tolerance on CT time: okey dokey. This is a yard or two.
    • Use of optimized launch conditions within ODS: good. And in hindsight, they should've been doing this all along. I wonder how many currently legal balls might run through their grace period and be done if this is put into effect?
  • There are six more areas of "research," but those are a ways from being reality. Reducing the ODS, for example… the ODS dates back to 1976 or something. Changing the size or weight of the ball… these research areas are BIG, and the USGA/R&A are throwing everything at the wall here. Good for them. I think reducing driver head size is fine, but they may also find that stuff like that affects average golfers much more than PGA Tour players. It'll be interesting, too, how they may want to reduce the spin on clubs but add spin to the ball.
  • I still don't think we should set the Rules of the game (or equipment) based on a tiny fraction of the game. 6500 yards is enough for the vast majority of golfers. And I strongly dislike the idea of bifurcation. I think that putts the R&A/USGA events in a weird spot. It puts handicapping in a weird spot. There are orders of magnitude more people at the "good amateur or pro" level than "worldwide Tour" level. If I only had a choice between universal roll-backs and bifurcation, I'd take the universal. Keep everyone playing the same game under the same rules.
  • The best argument, IMO, for regulating distance is the land use argument. There were a lot of bad arguments that made the rounds in support of a "rollback." For example, the whole "sanctity of the game" line… that's not going to change. We still know what we know now about how to play, how to score, how to maximize chances for success. Short of massive changes to the game, that won't change. We won't unlearn those things.
  • Overall, the three things (46", reduced tolerance, ODS optimized launch) feel like the line in the sand, not a "rollback." Do 'em all! I've never argued that we should get MORE distance via equipment, or that we should expand the ODS or something, and this firms up the stopping point.
  • If the USGA/R&A want to make small changes with the argument that it will cap distances against advances in player conditioning and speed, I'm fine with that too. Change CoR from 0.83 to 0.8. Reduce driver head sizes to 400cc. I just don't think we need to reduce the distance the ball flies by 20% (and not everyone has supported 20%).

Interesting times. And kudos to the USGA/R&A for their six areas of research. 😄

i did a thing GIF

  • Like 1
  • Thumbs Up 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1478 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • The first post is here:   Do you have an overly long backswing that ruins sequencing and leads to poor shots? In nearly 20 years of teaching, I've found 5 common faults. You don't have to swing like Jon Rahm, but a shorter swing will probably help you #PlayBetter golf. Which is your fatal flaw? #1 - Trail Elbow Bend Average golfers ♥️ bending their trail elbows. It can feel powerful! Tour players bend their trail elbows MUCH less. A wider trail elbow creates a longer hand path and preserves structure. It also forces more chest turn; not everything longer is bad! Overly bending your trail elbow can wreak havoc on your swing. It pulls your arms across/beside your body. It requires more time to get the elbow bend "out," ruining your sequencing. The lead arm often bends and low point control is destroyed. The misconception is that it will create more speed, but that's often the opposite of what happens. Golfers often feel they swing "easier" but FASTER with wider trail elbows. Want to play better golf with a shorter backswing? Don't bend your elbow so much. #2 - Hip (Pelvis) Turn I see this all the time: a golfer's hips are only 5-10° open at impact, but he turns them back 60°+ in the backswing. Unless your father is The Flash, your hips are probably not getting 40° open at impact from there! That's more rotation than Rory! Golfers who over-rotate their pelvis often over-turn everything - trail thigh/knee, chest/shoulders, etc. They have more work to do in the same ~0.3 seconds as a Tour player who turns back ~40° and turns through to impact 40° or so. Want to shorten the pelvis turn a bit? Learn to internally rotate into the trail hip, externally rotate away from the lead hip, and do "less" with your knees (extending and flexing) in the backswing. Learn some separation between chest and pelvis. #3 - Rolled Inside and Lifted Up Amateurs love to send the club (and their arms) around them. You see the red golfer here all the time at your local range. The problem? Your arms mostly take the club UP, not around. Going around creates no height until you have to hoist the club up in the air because you're halfway through your backswing and the club is waist high and three feet behind your butt! 😄  Learn to use your arms properly. Arms = up/down, body = around. Most golfers learn how little their arms really have to do in the backswing. The picture here is all you've gotta do (but maybe with a properly sized club!). #4 - Wide Takeaway Width is good, no? Yes, if you're wide at the right time and in the right spots. Golfers seeking width often don't hinge the club much early in the backswing… forcing them to hinge it late. Hinging the club late puts a lot of momentum into the club, wrists, and elbow just before we need to make a hairpin turn in transition and go the other direction at the start of the downswing. When you're driving into a hairpin curve, you go into it slowly and accelerate out of it. Waiting to hinge is like coasting down the straightaway and accelerating into the hairpin. Your car ends up off the road, and your golf ball off the course. Give hinging at a faster rate (earlier) then coasting to the top a try. You'll be able to accelerate out of the hairpin without the momentum of the arms and club pulling in the wrong direction.   #5 - Sway and Tilt Some sway is good but sometimes I see a golfer who just… keeps… swaying… Their chest leans forward a bit for balance, resulting in a whole lotta lean. The green line below is the GEARS "virtual spine." Pros sway a bit, but stay ~90°. This sway often combines with the extra pelvis turn because this golfer is not putting ANY limits on what the "middle of them" (their pelvis) is doing in the backswing. These golfers spend a lot of energy just to get back to neutral! The best players begin pushing forward EARLY in the backswing. Often before the club gets much past their trail foot! Pushing forward (softly) first stops your backward sway and then begins to get your body moving toward the target. Push softly, but early!  
    • I  no longer spend the time and effort trying to sell something I no longer need. Instead, if the clubs are in good condition, I go to my local golf shop or even Dicks Sporting Goods. Trade the clubs in for store credit and pick up something I need, like a hat. Cause you always need another golf hat!
    • Day 205 3-10 Wider backswing, reconnecting arm in downswing/arching wrist through. Also worked on less pause at the top. Recorded and hit a few foam balls. 
    • I really enjoyed this episode with Nick from Callaway. I didn't know the problem with swing weight and female golfers, but it makes sense. I actually think swing weight might not matter that much. If everyone senses the club differently, then wouldn't it mean that people might feel swing weights differently? Swing weight is a way to classify how heavy a club feels during the swing. Yet for a 70-year-old golfer, a D0 might feel like a D4 for a 25-year-old golfer? I think stronger people would consider higher swing weights lighter. Maybe a C8 equals a D2 in terms of feel?   
    • Wordle 1,725 3/6 ⬜🟨⬜🟨⬜ ⬜🟨🟩⬜⬜ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.