Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[Buckeyebowman]

11 minutes ago, QuadrupleBogey said:

Better yet, disarm the cops. They do it in Europe. works fine. They maybe use their gun 3 times in a career, so why carry it all day? Do you see firefighters walking around with hoses and axes looking for fires? Nope.

This is one of the most stupid things I've ever read! It USED to work fine. Cops in England were unarmed for a long time. Guess what? They're armed now! Why? Because the criminals are! Especially the terrorists. 

I refuse to engage in "white guilt". I've never owned slaves, nor have any of my ancestors. They all arrived here in not the best financial circumstances and worked their way up. They had ambition. and you know what? So did many black folk. They wanted to build a better future for their children until the government crushed it with the "War on Poverty"!

[ChetlovesMer]

38 minutes ago, QuadrupleBogey said:

Better yet, disarm the cops. They do it in Europe. works fine. They maybe use their gun 3 times in a career, so why carry it all day? Do you see firefighters walking around with hoses and axes looking for fires? Nope.

I'm not sure if we should or shouldn't disarm the police. But I can tell you after living in Europe for several years and traveling extensively throughout the continent, the cops in Europe carry guns. 

[billchao]

22 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I refuse to engage in "white guilt". I've never owned slaves, nor have any of my ancestors. They all arrived here in not the best financial circumstances and worked their way up. They had ambition. and you know what? So did many black folk. They wanted to build a better future for their children until the government crushed it with the "War on Poverty"!

White people and black people were playing the same game, but they had different rules. Whether they were even aware of it or not, white people have had advantages over generations that black people did not have.

Here's an excerpt from Adam Ruins Everything which is comedic, but also works hard to research and present factual information (they cite their sources) on the history of suburban development which shows some of this:

 

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I refuse to engage in "white guilt".

It's not white guilt. It's realizing the system is messed up. I don't need to feel guilty to be upset that a black man had a foot on his neck for over 8 minutes. I don't need to feel guilt to stare at the evidence showing that our systems favors white people. 

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

They all arrived here in not the best financial circumstances and worked their way up. They had ambition. and you know what? So did many black folk. They wanted to build a better future for their children until the government crushed it with the "War on Poverty"!

It goes way further back then that. It goes back to the failure of the reconstruction after the Civil War. It goes to the creation of police departments to enforce Jim Crow laws in the south. It goes towards the FBI hunting down civil right activists during the civil rights movements. It goes towards legalizing the term white so the government can create laws to promote a racial class system. Yes, the war on poverty has done great harm. It has destroyed the black family. It doesn't change the fact that black parents have to teach their kids how to interact with a cop so they don't get killed. This isn't just by black parents in poverty. It's by well off black parents. My dad's boss at Diebold (a fortune 500 company at the time & note, my dad was a VP of his department), told him that he had to have that talk with his son. 

As @billchao said, we are not all playing the same game. Everyone doesn't play the same game as those with tremendous amounts of money. White people play by a different set of rules than black people. It's as simple as unconscious biases that make use do very small decisions that over a lifetime add up. 

I'll be the first to admit, if I am in downtown Akron. If I see a teenage to middle aged black man, my danger sense goes up. I know nothing of that man except that I am attaching statistics to him for my own safety. It's cowardice of me to do so. 

[JGus]

10 hours ago, billchao said:

White people and black people were playing the same game, but they had different rules. Whether they were even aware of it or not, white people have had advantages over generations that black people did not have.

 

9 hours ago, saevel25 said:

we are not all playing the same game. Everyone doesn't play the same game as those with tremendous amounts of money. White people play by a different set of rules than black people. It's as simple as unconscious biases that make use do very small decisions that over a lifetime add up. 

I'll be the first to admit, if I am in downtown Akron. If I see a teenage to middle aged black man, my danger sense goes up. I know nothing of that man except that I am attaching statistics to him for my own safety. It's cowardice of me to do so. 

I've been trying to stay quite in this thread, but based on my childhood and 20+ years in the Army, I have to say that I disagree with your statements.  You are making very generalized statements that all white people had advantages and all black people were disadvantaged, which I think are false statements, at least during my lifetime, but historically I agree.  I could be reading it wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your posts.

And I don't understand stating "Everyone doesn't play the same game as those with tremendous amounts of money", then state "White people play by a different set of rules than black people".  I really don't know how one has to do with the other as not all white people have more money than all black people.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, JGus said:

You are making very generalized statements that all white people had advantages and all black people were disadvantaged, which I think are false statements, at least during my lifetime, but historically I agree.

It’s pretty much true. Unconscious bias exists. White people are more likely to get promoted than black people. The fact that if you are born black you have a much higher chance of being born into a single parent home and in poverty. All of that is based on decades of disenfranchisement. That child didn’t choose to be born into a system that doesn’t give them a fair starting line. Think of it as they are starting a race a pap behind. You just have to look at the social economical demographics to see this. I get it, “If they just apply themselves!” Do you realize that it’s actually harder to break Into a different economic class in the US than it is in Canada. It’s tough to get ahead in the USA. You are more likely to stay were you are at. It has very little to do with effort. Especially now we are living in a time we’re most of the past two generations will not make more money then their parents. This has never happened before. Don’t get me wrong, I think the USA is the best place to live in the world. It’s just not built around fairness.
 

11 minutes ago, JGus said:

And I don't understand stating "Everyone doesn't play the same game as those with tremendous amounts of money", then state "White people play by a different set of rules than black people".  I really don't know how one has to do with the other as not all white people have more money than all black people.

Rich people live in an entirely different world than we do. So you have to parse them out. 

with the remaining people, white people play by a different set of rules. 

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, JGus said:

I've been trying to stay quite in this thread, but based on my childhood and 20+ years in the Army, I have to say that I disagree with your statements.  You are making very generalized statements that all white people had advantages and all black people were disadvantaged, which I think are false statements, at least during my lifetime, but historically I agree.  I could be reading it wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your posts.

They’re going to be generalized statements. Obviously we can’t talk about every single household through the past 100 years or so.

If you disagree with factual events that happened (and is still happening) in US history, I don’t know what to tell you. There’s a reason black families have accumulated less wealth over the last 100 years or so compared to Italian or German immigrants.

[JGus]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It’s pretty much true.
 

with the remaining people, white people play by a different set of rules. 

I respect your point of view, but still disagree and think it's a to generalized stance.  We all approach this based on how our own lives are so we are going to see things differently. 

5 minutes ago, billchao said:

They’re going to be generalized statements. Obviously we can’t talk about every single household through the past 100 years or so.

If you disagree with factual events that happened (and is still happening) in US history, I don’t know what to tell you. There’s a reason black families have accumulated less wealth over the last 100 years or so compared to Italian or German immigrants.

I'm not disagreeing with US history, I'm disagreeing that stating today that all white people have an advantage over all black people is a false statement.

[billchao]

8 minutes ago, JGus said:

I'm not disagreeing with US history, I'm disagreeing that stating today that all white people have an advantage over all black people is a false statement.

Nobody said that. That would be a ridiculous position. I know plenty of poor white families and well off black ones.

[mcanadiens]

32 minutes ago, JGus said:

I've been trying to stay quite in this thread, but based on my childhood and 20+ years in the Army, I have to say that I disagree with your statements.  You are making very generalized statements that all white people had advantages and all black people were disadvantaged, which I think are false statements, at least during my lifetime, but historically I agree.  I could be reading it wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your posts.

Anytime you are discussing racial issues, everything is going to be generalized. You can always find exceptions, but public policy should never be geared to the exceptions. 

Part of the problem with talking about race is that people take things very personally. The discussion is not about you, the successful black family that sends their kids to a private school or the poor white family on food stamps. Its about the entire population.

 

 

 

 

[TN94z]

On 6/8/2020 at 11:35 AM, boogielicious said:

He’s been through a lot. He was part of the #metoo movement and was abused when he was a young actor. FWIW, there are those on both extremes that will twist words to support their sides.

I liked this statement. I also liked, “All lives won’t matter until Black Lives Matter”.

 

This is such a good example of the "All Lives Matter" response.  Very good post. I haven't finished reading all of the posts in this thread just yet, so I'll refrain from giving my complete thoughts, but the bottom line is there is a problem whether each person truly thinks they have underlying issues or not. What we are seeing (aside from the outcasts that are using the situation to be destructive) is people that are fed up with this issue and taking a stance. I'll continue reading through the rest of the replies now...I just wanted to give props for the post above.

[JGus]

37 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Anytime you are discussing racial issues, everything is going to be generalized. You can always find exceptions, but public policy should never be geared to the exceptions. 

Part of the problem with talking about race is that people take things very personally. The discussion is not about you, the successful black family that sends their kids to a private school or the poor white family on food stamps. Its about the entire population.

I agree with this, just not a fan of generalizations.

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, JGus said:

I respect your point of view, but still disagree and think it's a to generalized stance.  We all approach this based on how our own lives are so we are going to see things differently. 

I approach this as a white male who has grown up in the upper middle class, was put through college by my family, who went to Ohio State University to become a Civil Engineer. My mom comes from a very conservative family. My dad side of the family was more independent. I come from these points of views by trying to not be stuck in the system, but to view the system. Sometimes you need to step back and examine things. 

50 minutes ago, JGus said:

I'm not disagreeing with US history, I'm disagreeing that stating today that all white people have an advantage over all black people is a false statement.

We got to stop thinking in terms of all. Think of it as more likely. A black person is more likely to be stopped by a police officer because they are black than a white person. That is not a generalization. 

---

Try to guess the results of these poles at FiveThirtyEight, 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/racism-polls/

[JGus]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I approach this as a white male who has grown up in the upper middle class, was put through college by my family, who went to Ohio State University to become a Civil Engineer. My mom comes from a very conservative family. My dad side of the family was more independent. I come from these points of views by trying to not be stuck in the system, but to view the system. Sometimes you need to step back and examine things. 

We got to stop thinking in terms of all. Think of it as more likely. A black person is more likely to be stopped by a police officer because they are black than a white person. That is not a generalization. 

---

Try to guess the results of these poles at FiveThirtyEight, 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/racism-polls/

You and I approach this from opposite ends of the spectrum, but at the end of the day the only thing we really need to agree on is that a change is needed, and that we do.

[billchao]

12 minutes ago, JGus said:

I agree with this, just not a fan of generalizations.

Ok but how are we suppose to discuss a population without generalizing? We can’t just ignore racial disparities just because it doesn’t affect everyone equally.

[JGus]

9 minutes ago, billchao said:

Ok but how are we suppose to discuss a population without generalizing? We can’t just ignore racial disparities just because it doesn’t affect everyone equally.

I don't know the answer and in no way did I say to ignore racial disparities, I simply stated that I don't like generalizations.  Again, at the end of the day we are in agreement on what needs to happen.

[saevel25]

33 minutes ago, billchao said:

Ok but how are we suppose to discuss a population without generalizing? We can’t just ignore racial disparities just because it doesn’t affect everyone equally.

I agree, you have to talk about generalizations because the unconscious bias is based on generalizations. 

A white person walks down the street, he sees a black 25 year old male, and the white person cross the street to avoid the person. There is an unconscious bias, a generalization that is programmed into that person, that black people are dangerous. Deep down, there has to be a subconscious fear that triggered that person to cross the street. If not, then why cross the street? Why not try to know the person first before making the decision? 

Here is another example. A white supervisor gives their OK to hire a black person for a job. The black person slacks off for a few weeks, quits their job, and goes to claim unemployment. The next black person that gets interviewed is probably not going to get the OK from the supervisor unless the black person is overqualified. If this was a white person who did this, the white supervisor wouldn't think twice about hiring another white person. 

A white cop knows all the stats about crime. They generalize those stats to see black person = more crimes. They then police the black community more than the white community. It's pretty easy to connect the dots. The police don't care about getting to know the community. All this is because it's much easier to generalize. 

The issue is, the system is built for convenience. Its how humans are wired. We are wired to be tribal. We are wired to see differences, to generalize, so we can save energy and be more efficient in our social interactions. This is why eye witness testimony is routinely bad.

New research reveals how little we can trust eyewitnesses

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Turns out eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable forms of evidence.

We are not good at taking in visual details because it takes a lot of processing power. So we learn how to generalize. You can tell who your friend is from across the room because you memorized their body language and general outline. You don't need to see that their eye color is green, or they have a birthmark. This is why you may mistake someone for someone else. 

We need to examine these generalizations because we live our lives generalizing every day. 

[GolfLug]

Well stated. Yes it is truly a system of convenience, sort of rooted in intellectual laziness and exactly why a simple yet powerful message of 'Black lives matter' is necessary and probably the the most effective way to tilt the scale of unconscious bias. 

Combating conscious bias OTOH is a significantly harder task. They roll their eyes at BLM. For all of our sake, I can only hope that they are headed up the way of the dodo.