PAC-12 Players Demand Pay

[Shindig]

This is part of why John Urschel is so impressive.  Great student and made it to the NFL.  

Every now and then there's some noise about making a "college age pros" league.  I keep hoping one of them will succeed.

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

... and that is so sad.  But every once in a while a few of them pick up on key things and become smart, good citizens.  I always like watching the after-game interviews with athletes, whether college or pro sports.  It is quite refreshing when some of them are reflective and cognizant of who and where they are.  Those are the ones who will benefit our society.

I bet most of those people had better lives growing up not just because they had something click in college. If you come from poverty you, on average your reading level is 5 grade levels lower than someone who came from a more affluent family. Imagine, that kid who couldn't control his upbringing is now sent to college. It makes perfect sense that a lot of kids go down the athletic route. It makes a lot of sense that for them the general education classes might be the only thing they can handle. 

There are some undeniable facts here. 1. Colleges make excuses in trying to claim they need to be students, yet do not mandate they achieve an adequate degree. 2. They make an absurd amount of money off their athletic abilities. 

It's clear if colleges wanted to actually care about these STUDENTS, the system would be set up to actually improve them as students and put college first and not athletics. Then, you'd have to accept a lower standard of athletic achievement. They can't memorize hundreds of plays and be expected to major in Finance, Business, Engineering, Medical. Nick Saban's defensive playbook is over 500 pages. Really, they should allow them to count football as a minor degree. That is what they are getting a degree in. 

[David in FL]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, they're not.

Colleges with bigger time football and basketball programs are basically barely educating athletes so that they can meet the very loose NCAA standards to participate in athletics, then making millions off the work and talents and abilities of those athletes.

I'm not going to say that they're abused or anything like that, but the NCAA and the various college programs would love for you to keep calling them "student athletes" and to keep spouting nonsense like "but they're getting an education."

They're almost never "getting an education." They're enrolled in classes called "rocks for jocks" (a very basic geology class), "communication" majors, "general studies" programs… etc. They're just enrolled in classes where they're given Bs or Cs to keep a high enough GPA and credit hour counts to do the only real reason many/most are there: to play their sport, to train, to practice, to hit the weight room, etc.

The educational opportunities are still there for those that want to take advantage of them.  And my point was, that there are plenty of ordinary college students who don’t do much more while they are in school, don’t get any better of a degree in terms of usefulness, and still pay the full ride.

It’s also worth realizing that the vast majority of athletes, even D1 football players, understand that they have almost 0 chance of ever playing professionally.  At some point they share responsibility for what happens after college…

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

The educational opportunities are still there for those that want to take advantage of them.

No, they're not. Players are actively discouraged from taking on "actual" degrees. Natalie was flat out told that if she planned to major in certain things, she'd not play for some D1 and even D2 college teams. And that's for golf.

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

And my point was, that there are plenty of ordinary college students who don’t do much more while they are in school, don’t get any better of a degree in terms of usefulness, and still pay the full ride.

So what? "These athletes are taken advantage of and not given a real education, but that's okay: others waste their time and money, too?" That's the point you're making.

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

It’s also worth realizing that the vast majority of athletes, even D1 football players, understand that they have almost 0 chance of ever playing professionally.  At some point they share responsibility for what happens after college…

They're not rewarded for what they do IN college. And once their scholarship is up, and they're left without a real education… then what?

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

No, they're not. Players are actively discouraged from taking on "actual" degrees. Natalie was flat out told that if she planned to major in certain things, she'd not play for some D1 and even D2 college teams. And that's for golf.

So what? "These athletes are taken advantage of and not given a real education, but that's okay: others waste their time and money, too?" That's the point you're making.

They're not rewarded for what they do IN college. And once their scholarship is up, and they're left without a real education… then what?

The “then what” Is that they should realize that the vast majority have no chance whatsoever of playing in the pros, and should take their education as their priorty.

I know a bunch of VERY good D1 athletes in baseball and football.  Every one of them tells me that from day one they know the very few that had a chance to go on, and recognized that the rest, no matter how good,  did not…

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, David in FL said:

The “then what” Is that they should realize that the vast majority have no chance whatsoever of playing in the pros, and should take their education as their priorty.

They don’t. Let’s talk about reality, not what they “should” do. The NCAA and colleges take advantage. 50% is ridiculous, but they deserve more than a worthless degree (which many don’t even get).

[Hardspoon]

I think all the talk of "educational opportunities" and "student athletes" makes it sound more complex than it is.

Simple fact: the NCAA sells a product...for a s**tton of money...and that product is created by kids who can't get paid at all, in any way, shape, or form, for creating it.  That's not right.  You can argue about how much money is too much...and certainly, that they can't just be paid market-rate (which would net some of them millions)...but I don't see how you can argue that NOTHING is the right amount.

Relevant:

NCAA President Mark Emmert credited with $2.7 million in total pay for 2018 calendar year

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NCAA President Mark Emmert was credited with just over $2.7 million in total compensation during the 2018 calendar year, according to the

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Hardspoon

[Vinsk]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

Most football or basketball players aren't in school to get a valuable degree. They're not there for the education.

Not sure I agree with this. Have you seen the percentage of college athletes ( bskt/football) that make it to the pros? Most athletes go to college knowing the chances of going pro are slim to none. I think your points are true regarding those who are top of the sport in high school and have excelled and been praised from coaches....but most?

Edited August 3, 2020 by Vinsk

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Not sure I agree with this. Have you seen the percentage of college athletes ( bskt/football) that make it to the pros? Most athletes go to college knowing the chances of going pro are slim to none. I think your points are true regarding those who are top of the sport in high school and have excelled and been praised from coaches....but most?

I’m talking about the ones who would be in line to get paid. I’m not talking about some random D1 school with a no-name football program.

Those are the majority by far. But that’s not the topic as we’re talking about those who are big enough to want to be paid, in million-dollar programs.

And yes, look at the most popular majors by football players. Even if we’re very loose about limiting the players we’re talking about, most of them aren’t getting awesome degrees.

[TourSpoon]

I think you guys are talking about such a small number of athletes that are even in that pool of talent to even be considered to go pro that broad generalizations are being made here about all athletes. I don't think the D1 FBS football/basketball blue chip conversation is remotely close to the experience of the most other sports. Sure there are kids that just want to play whatever sport at any cost but there are many that use their talent, high GPA, coachable personalities, and leverage that into a good program and get a great degree. These really are different conversations. 

[Vinsk]

40 minutes ago, iacas said:

I’m talking about the ones who would be in line to get paid. I’m not talking about some random D1 school with a no-name football program.

I figured that. I’m just not sure how to distribute the revenue fairly. What I don’t agree with is the top players who everyone knows will be drafted making money in college. They’re going to make 1000X more money than 99.9% of students paying for their education. 
I got an elite education that pales in comparison to compensation of what many of those ‘communications degree’ students have and will get.

I can appreciate the revenue these athletes generate for the college so I’m open for discussion. You’ve made some good points as has @saevel25.

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

What I don’t agree with is the top players who everyone knows will be drafted making money in college. They’re going to make 1000X more money than 99.9% of students paying for their education. 

So what? Should the colleges just say, "you know what, you are going to get lots of money anyways, let us use you as indentured workers so we can make millions off your abilities". That is basically the situation college athletes are in when they are in a program that is the money machine for the college. We had indentured workers in the past in this country and as a society we kinda said no.

At some level these players need to actually get some value for what they are doing in college. If a junk degree isn't valuable enough then they at least need to make money off their likeness and they need to at least get some sort of compensation from the school. 

33 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I got an elite education that pales in comparison to compensation of what many of those ‘communications degree’ students have and will get.

This just sounds like pettiness. 

 

[Sandy Lie]

It’s just a money grab!  NCAA can’t have one Conference going rogue.   I’d cancel the season!

[mcanadiens]

As much as I enjoy watching college sports (football and hockey specifically), it ought to be clear that the entire thing has grown into something ridiculous. 

The demands put on "student-athletes" are really excessive. Pressure to field a winning team does make recruiting violations inevitable. The lack of real minor leagues for football and basketball deprive the athlete of any real alternative. 

It makes sense for colleges to have recreational opportunities for their students. Inter-collegiate competition is a fine thing provided it can be done without putting the actual purpose of colleges and universities second (education). 

What doesn't make sense is this.

[saevel25]

32 minutes ago, Sandy Lie said:

It’s just a money grab!  NCAA can’t have one Conference going rogue.   I’d cancel the season!

There are rumors going around that the major conferences might split away from the NCAA. That discussion might be off-topic fro this thread. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by saevel25

[David in FL]

51 minutes ago, Sandy Lie said:

It’s just a money grab!  NCAA can’t have one Conference going rogue.   I’d cancel the season!

Better yet, replace the players with those anxious for a chance waiting in the wings.  This would be the perfect year to do so since it’s pretty well shot anyway.

Three words for you... Air Traffic Controllers  

 

 

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I’m talking about the ones who would be in line to get paid. I’m not talking about some random D1 school with a no-name football program.

 

 

And just like that, Mississippi State or The University of Delaware never get a chance for another Jerry Rice or Joe Flacco again...

as big as the disparity in recruiting is now, can you only imagine what it would be if one program could pay their players and another couldn’t?

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

, let us use you as indentured workers

Really? They’re playing a sport. Come on...you’re being a little ridiculous the other direction. 
As a resident I worked 120hrs/week and was paid less than a nurse. Sorry...playing football or basketball is hardly an indentured worker. Yeah..no.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Vinsk