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djake

Need Insight - Thick Rough Lie Right at the Green

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11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If the ball is sitting up in the grass, then probably a PW chip shot may work out better. 

I mean obviously a PW chip shot is likely the better option compared to both the flop shot and the hybrid/3 wood bump and run, but I still think less can go wrong with the hybrid/3wood bump and run vs. an open face flop shot for most amateurs. 

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 I think it would be extremely hard to judge the speed and trajectory of the ball off the clubface when you use a hybrid or 3-wood. 

I don't think so, especially not if you spent a little time on a practice green getting the feel for the shot. There isn't much trajectory to worry about since it only has to cover 3-6 inches of rough before the fringe, basically just get the ball out of the rough and onto the fringe and it would roll down towards the hole. I think it would be much harder for the average amateur golfer to judge the speed and trajectory of a very short flop shot out of thick rough than it would be to grip down on a hybrid or 3 wood and make like a 6 inch backswing with a putting motion and just pop the ball onto the green.

22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Also, both of those are flatter than wedges, and more likely to get caught up in the rough. 

I think with how small the backswing is there is minimal time for the club to get caught up in the rough and even if a decent bit of grass gets caught between the clubface and the ball, the ball will still most likely have enough speed to pop out the 6 inches that it needs to in order to get onto the fringe. With a flop shot its totally possible to completely slide underneath the ball and leave the ball right where it was before the flop.

Golfers might hit it closer more often using the flop shot/lob wedge, but that could also result in leaving the ball in the rough or thinning it over the green, both of which are extremely unlikely to happen with the hybrid/3wood, which is why I said I feel like the hybrid/3wood has less risk. Personally I would play it exactly how you described in your original post on this topic, but I think the hybrid/3wood method would be worth exploring especially for someone who has little or no confidence with flop shots or opening the clubface

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45 minutes ago, klineka said:

I mean obviously a PW chip shot is likely the better option compared to both the flop shot and the hybrid/3 wood bump and run, but I still think less can go wrong with the hybrid/3wood bump and run vs. an open face flop shot for most amateurs.

I found the hybrid/3-wood play to be only for one shot. When you are on an extremely tight lie, and you need to cover a lot of space on the green. So you need a bit more pop than a putter. Basically, The Open championship with their gigantic greens. Maybe if you are up against the edge of the rough, though I would rather putt with a wedge versus use a hybrid. 

Besides that, 99.9% of shots can be handled by a putt, chip, pitch, or flop shot. If a PW chip shot is easier than a hybrid/3-wood then there is no need to practice this type of shot.

47 minutes ago, klineka said:

I don't think so, especially not if you spent a little time on a practice green getting the feel for the shot. There isn't much trajectory to worry about since it only has to cover 3-6 inches of rough before the fringe, basically just get the ball out of the rough and onto the fringe and it would roll down towards the hole. I think it would be much harder for the average amateur golfer to judge the speed and trajectory of a very short flop shot out of thick rough than it would be to grip down on a hybrid or 3 wood and make like a 6 inch backswing with a putting motion and just pop the ball onto the green.

The issue is that there is little margin of error because of the more speed you will get from the hybrid. They have a higher smash factor potential due to the lower loft and hotter clubface. 

49 minutes ago, klineka said:

With a flop shot its totally possible to completely slide underneath the ball and leave the ball right where it was before the flop.

That is were you judge which shot you want to take. 

1. Flop shot
2. Pitch shot
3. Chip Shot

I still think if you have this thick of rough you are more likely to have alot of grass get between the ball the hybrid. Verse being able to adjust the steepness of the shot with a wedge. 

 

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So this is really the opposite of a tight lie, that is a ball in the deep rough. Funny thing I was practicing this shot today in about 3" of rough with the ball nestled down about 6' feet from an elevated green. I hit it with a high lofted sand wedge similar to a bunker shot and the balls pops out softly. The trick is to commit to the shot and swing through the ball (momentum of the club not stopping). The one caveat here is that if the ball is hung up and not sitting down, I would probably take a less lofted club with a shallower approach and control bottom of the swing so you don't swing under the ball and whiff. 

The hybrid option I find is really good from a super tight lie especially if its soft. 

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4 hours ago, djake said:

I appreciate your advice and help, this shot is a challenge for me and I am not figuring it out.  Your insight on club selection and how you hit the ball is appreciated.

The Shot:

Ball has nestled into the thick, like real thick grass just past the fringe.  It maybe 3" to 6" into the thick stuff.  The shot is downhill with the cup at the legal 8' from the edge of the green so you very little green to work with.  Due to the quality of the rough and how thick it is more times then not the grass is wet, especially when it is a early morning round.  Later in the day this thick near PGA quality type rough will dry out but still the grass really maintains the moisture.  Then also the green speed has picked up.

These greens roll exceptionally well, they are very fast.  At one time at a 12.5 stimpmeter reading.  They have brought the speed down a tich, like between a 11 & 12 now.  But if you find your line these greens roll so true that it you can trust them.

Quick recap:

Very thick rough, ball is nestled down, you can see it.  Probably 6" deep

The fringe is like 12"

8' of green to work with

Downhill on fast greens, after the cup is a lot of down hill so if you hit it to firm you will be in a very long up hill putt that is more then likely a 2 putt now.

I am at work and will be checking back from time to time so sorry for any delays in responding

There are two things that usually work for me in this situation:

  1. Choke down on a wedge and toe it down, do a putting stroke type of motion.
  2. Manage my expectations. Getting down in three from some situations is the best I can realistically expect.

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6 minutes ago, billchao said:

There are two things that usually work for me in this situation:

  1. Choke down on a wedge and toe it down, do a putting stroke type of motion.
  2. Manage my expectations. Getting down in three from some situations is the best I can realistically expect.

I'll show you how to hit this one over the weekend, we have plenty of these lies at Stoneleigh.

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 Lob wedge, hold on tight, make sure you get out and don't have to repeat the same shot, I'm playing for the center of the green.

 

Edited by No Mulligans

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1 minute ago, No Mulligans said:

6" rough right next to the fringe?  You can see the ball?  Torrey Pines in U.S. open conditions, not even sure if the rough is that high.  Lob wedge, hold on tight, make sure you get out and don't have to repeat the same shot, I'm playing for the center of the green.

Imo, those conditions are just wrong.  What is the pace of play with 6" rough, how can you find a ball?  I remember a Farmers at Torrey pines with the rough really up, Tiger missed the cut, Phil hurt his bad and withdrew.  Lots of complaining.

I read the initial post as the ball was 3-6 inches into the rough, meaning only 3-6 inches of rough between the ball and fringe, not that the rough was 3-6 inches long

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Just now, klineka said:

I read the initial post as the ball was 3-6 inches into the rough, meaning only 3-6 inches of rough between the ball and fringe, not that the rough was 3-6 inches long

Yeah I just reread that, sorry, changed my post.

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On 8/4/2020 at 9:37 AM, saevel25 said:

I didn't know anything closer was illegal? Oh well.. 

How I would play this shot.

  1. I would take my lob wedge, open it up. Set it down behind the ball and then line up to the club so it's forward in my stance.
  2. Get the center of my chest to be just in front of the ball with a lot of weight on my front foot.
  3. I want to pick the club up vertical and hit down a bit steeper than I would normally do to combat the grass gripping the golf shaft. I will just let gravity and my pivot generate a ton of speed. There will be very little follow through since the club is coming in steeper and I want gravity to do most of the work. The ball should just pop out. 

 

 

@saevel25 I wanted to follow up with you regarding this.  I played yesterday and had 4 shots to utilize this technique.  All 4 attempts worked out!  I did not blade any of them, they all popped up and dropped super soft and all 4 were short of the hole.  The fear factor of running a golf ball past the hole and down the green was there so that helped contribute to being short.  

Every shot left me with a solid makeable putt!  I made two of the 4 putts and left myself with tap ins on the other 2 putts.

Thanks again

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1 hour ago, djake said:

@saevel25 I wanted to follow up with you regarding this.  I played yesterday and had 4 shots to utilize this technique.  All 4 attempts worked out!  I did not blade any of them, they all popped up and dropped super soft and all 4 were short of the hole.  The fear factor of running a golf ball past the hole and down the green was there so that helped contribute to being short.  

Every shot left me with a solid makeable putt!  I made two of the 4 putts and left myself with tap ins on the other 2 putts.

Thanks again

Glad it worked out for you. 😉

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