Si Woo Kim Penalized One Stroke

[Vinsk]

33 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

, even after the waiting time has passed,

Ok...but for how long? This could be a real mess. I think the rule is fine as it is.

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

 .... after the waiting time has passed

Can I wait until the next day?

Edited April 20, 2021 by Rulesman

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Ok...but for how long? This could be a real mess. I think the rule is fine as it is.

For how long? Until the ball is at rest, just like with 100% of other shots where you wait until the ball stops moving before hitting it again.

If the ball is moving, not oscillating or wobbling as described in Rule 10.1d, and it's hanging over the edge of the hole it's going to go in the hole without much more than 10 seconds delay maximum in the first place. Si Woo Kim's ball is an excellent example of about the longest amount of time it would ever take for a ball that was constantly in motion to fall.

24 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Can I wait until the next day?

Don't be ridiculous, for this rule to even apply you have to have part of the ball overhanging the lip. The maximum distance for the ball to travel before falling into the hole from there is 0.84", half the diameter of the golf ball. A ball that is still moving will cover that distance without enough delay to hamper pace of play. Either the ball will reach the hole or friction will stop it before it can travel 0.84", neither of those takes much longer than 10 seconds to occur even in the most extreme cases like this one.

There is no reason to arbitrarily cap how long a golf ball is allowed to roll. Like I said earlier, it's no different than telling a player they need to pick up their tee shot and drop it 30 yards back because the ball was in motion for "too long". It makes more sense to just wait until the ball stops moving, instead of putting a blind timer on it. The original purpose of the ten second wait is to prevent players from delaying their group waiting for wind or other natural causes to topple their ball into the hole per Rule 13.1d(2). Rather than arbitrarily say 10 seconds is the limit, it makes more sense to just say the ball stops where it stops and must ALWAYS be replaced when moved by natural forces instead of only replacing it if natural forces move the ball after it has been lifted and replaced.

If your true objection to this rule is how long someone might wait and how that affects pace of play, then eliminating the wait altogether for balls that are not in motion makes sense. In the majority of cases players wait 10 seconds, then tap the ball in. Alternatively you could have players see if the ball is moving and tap in when they see it isn't, and only rarely wait for any amount of time at all if the ball is still in motion. Or you could implement my proposed change where you might wait 15-20 seconds once every 2-3 years instead of the 10 seconds that happens multiple times each day in a PGA tournament. Eliminating 13.3 entirely and modifying 13.1d(2) to always require the ball to be replaced after a natural force moves it on the putting green solves the problem entirely and has an effect on pace orders of magnitude larger than just waiting for a ball to stop rolling before hitting it again, because 10 second waits are common and a ball in motion for the entire 10 seconds is incredibly rare.

At no point in time does it make sense to require players to hit a golf ball in motion in direct contradiction with multiple other rules (10.1d and 11.2). Pace of play or "but it might take too long" are both absurd arguments against a proposal to just wait for the ball to stop before hitting it again. We already allow people to wait a specified amount of time for some natural force to move their ball that has already come to rest, it's not too much to ask that you allow players to actually wait until their ball comes to rest in the first place.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Pretzel

[iacas]

@Pretzel, the ball wasn't moving, and if all we have to do is say "oh, I think that ball is moving" and we can just all be forced to stand around and wait, then that's preposterous.

It's a legal fiction. Just like a lost ball found at the 3:10 mark is "lost" even though it's right there, sitting in the rough.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Club Rat said:

I had that thought when I started the thread. Had Kim announced his intention to putt out, then went through the process of reading the book, line up the putt etc, it would have given it time to take the course which eventually occurred.

Doesn't matter. The ball was overhanging the lip of the hole, so it was at rest under the Rules. He could have walked to the next tee and watched it fall in from there and immediately teed off.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

This is exactly the problem though, it's absurd to claim that a moving ball is at rest just because you decided it's been moving too long.

It's not "absurd" at all.

What would be absurd is standing there for 30 minutes because a player claims his ball is "moving" while he waits for a gust of wind to blow it in.

If the ball doesn't fall in after the time it takes to get there and ten seconds, we have to set some time limit, so they set ten seconds. A ball overhanging the lip only has to move about 0.83 inches at a minimum (and probably much less as that's a ball overhanging the lip by 0.01" or so). In about twenty seconds, that's a rate of… 2.3  x 10^-3 MPH.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

It's completely arbitrary

As are basically all of the Rules of any game.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

It's no different than telling a player they need to pick up their ball and walk back 30 yards to drop it after their tee shot

Ummm, yes it is.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Encouraging or even requiring people to take a stroke at a moving (not oscillating) ball also directly contradicts other rules that prevent intentionally hitting a moving ball, which is what leads to this level of confusion in the first place.

It doesn't "contradict" other Rules because Rules have an order. And exceptions. And specifications.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Encouraging or even requiring people to take a stroke at a moving (not oscillating) ball also directly contradicts other rules that prevent intentionally hitting a moving ball, which is what leads to this level of confusion in the first place.

It's not confusing at all.

You're a smart guy. If you find this Rule "confusing" then I may have to re-think the first sentence in this paragraph. 🙂

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

The rules changes from 2019 were a big step forwards for the game, but occasions like this show that there is still progress to be made.

Uhm, no. Hard disagree.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

Players should also never be required to hit ball that they and their playing partners can clearly see is still moving, which is the current consequence of the rule and directly contradicts rule 10.1d.

Please define "clearly" for us, and write it in such a way that players can apply this Rule at every level of the game.

The HD camera was zoomed in on it, and until a little wind blew the ball in after about 1 minute after it stopped, the ball wasn't moving.

So, if your "playing partner" is cool with you and rooting for you, can he just say "it's clearly moving" for 10 minutes while everyone waits for a gust of wind strong enough to knock the ball in the hole?

It doesn't contradict 10.1d. That's not how the Rules of Golf work. Or the law.

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

You still get your ten seconds for a ball at rest, as per usual, but you are no longer allowed or required to hit a ball in motion. Likewise you are not penalized an additional stroke for factors outside your control, such as conditions that mean your ball continues to roll for more than 10 seconds before falling into the hole. It doesn't affect pace of play and it makes the rules much more consistent

Why do you think this Rule was added in the first place?

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

For how long? Until the ball is at rest, just like with 100% of other shots where you wait until the ball stops moving before hitting it again.

It was at rest.

Again, you seem to be unaware of when/why this Rule was added.

They looked at EVERY rule for the 2019 revisions. This one didn't get changed at all, but it was not because they didn't look at it and consider it.

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Si Woo Kim's ball is an excellent example of about the longest amount of time it would ever take for a ball that was constantly in motion to fall.

That's not true at all. I've been standing in places where gusts of wind occur 20 minutes apart. Or longer.

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

The maximum distance for the ball to travel before falling into the hole from there is 0.84"

The ball wouldn't be overhanging at 0.84". 🙂

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

A ball that is still moving will cover that distance without enough delay to hamper pace of play. Either the ball will reach the hole or friction will stop it before it can travel 0.84", neither of those takes much longer than 10 seconds to occur even in the most extreme cases like this one.

Dude.

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

There is no reason to arbitrarily cap how long a golf ball is allowed to roll. Like I said earlier, it's no different than telling a player they need to pick up their tee shot and drop it 30 yards back because the ball was in motion for "too long".

There is. 🙂 To both of those statements.

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

If your true objection to this rule is how long someone might wait and how that affects pace of play, then eliminating the wait altogether for balls that are not in motion makes sense.

No, that's extreme in the other sense. Tiger's ball in 2005 would be said to be at rest because, for a split second, it appeared not to be moving.

Ten seconds + reasonable time to get there is a sane middle ground. Not so long a player can just stand there and wait for a gust of wind, not so short we're robbed of historic golf shot that you haven't seen "in your life!"

48 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Alternatively you could have players see if the ball is moving and tap in when they see it isn't, and only rarely wait for any amount of time at all if the ball is still in motion.

Oh, in that case, my eagle eyes definitely see movement. And will for the next thirty minutes or so, or until a gust of wind blows my ball in, whichever comes first.

 

---

But, please, watch the video yourself.

The ball isn't moving. The camera is, but the ball isn't. For long stretches of time.

So, you have to set a limit. They decided on 10 seconds. They decided on a maximum of 2.3 x 10^-3 MPH.

[jlbos83]

When I watched the video, I sure didn't think it was moving.  Hard to see how it balanced there, but it did not appear to be moving.

[Vinsk]

Dead. Still.

[jlbos83]

I do not believe there is any way it could have been perceptibly moving for over a minute, from that distance.  There has to be some time limit.  Folks might quibble about whether it should be 10 seconds, or maybe even 30 seconds.  Maybe go to 45, beyond that is slow play?  But I don't see anything wrong with the current rule.  Once every few years we might see a case like this, but I would say that's just the breaks.  Sometimes the wind blows one in that would have set forever in still air.

[iacas]

@Pretzel, from John van der Borght:

Just a little history on this courtesy of "The Rules of Golf Applied" by Cliff Schrock:

1963 Phoenix Open - Palmer was in clubhouse in the lead.  Don January was playing with Gary Player and Johnny Potts.  Player had a 5 footer to tie Arnie.  January putted first and his ball came to rest overhanging the hole.  At the time the Rule just said the player was allowed a "momentary delay" to see if the ball would fall.  January went up and thought the ball was still moving, which Player and Potts agreed with.

January waited 7 minutes and finally tapped the ball in.  Player then missed his putt and Palmer won.
The Rule was then changed because of this to allow 10 seconds and the player got a 2 stroke penalty if the ball fell in after that.

1985 U.S. Open at Oakland Hills - Denis Watson's putt on #8 in the first round came to rest on the lip.  Watson waited and eventually the ball did fall in for what he though was a par 4.  He was timed as having waited 42 seconds and was penalized 2 strokes.  He lost to Andy North by 1 stroke.

In 1988 the R&A and USGA changed the Rule to be a one-stroke penalty which made it the equivalent of tapping the ball in.

It has remained the same since then and was unchanged in 2019. The only real change was the wording was changed from "deemed to be at rest" to "treated as being at rest".

[billchao]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

In 1988 the R&A and USGA changed the Rule to be a one-stroke penalty which made it the equivalent of tapping the ball in.

That’s the way I look at it. You should have tapped it in so the penalty reflects that.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

That’s the way I look at it. You should have tapped it in so the penalty reflects that.

Right.

Otherwise, you'd have to try to tap in before ten seconds, or at least, right at the end of ten seconds.

[Shorty]

7 hours ago, Pretzel said:

 

There is no reason to arbitrarily cap how long a golf ball is allowed to roll.

Of course there is. Especially when you privately sense a change in wind direction and "honestly believe" the ball is still moving when it's hovering on the edge and you daren't hit a moving ball because you're such a stickler for the rules.

Every year I have occasion to hover over my ball in the belief it is about to fall. Every time, after 10 seconds or so, someone (or me) says "I think it's 10 seconds". The ball is then tapped in.

How the hell can Kuchar not be aware of this. Once ten seconds is up, the point about a ball in motion is moot. Hence the rule.

[boogielicious]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

The ball isn't moving. The camera is, but the ball isn't. For long stretches of time.

So, you have to set a limit. They decided on 10 seconds. They decided on a maximum of 2.3 x 10^-3 MPH.

It wasn’t moving from this view. I also would add that the action of walking close to the ball may cause it to oscillate slightly. So I think the 10 second rule is appropriate. It’s not like the ball was slowly rolling toward the edge.

[TourSpoon]

This happened to me the other day and I went up to the hole and allowed my shadow to shade the ball and grass. After a few seconds, the players in the group all said you get 10 seconds, now tap it in. 

Even though Kuch fought hard, the rule is pretty clear. I am not sure why this has gone 2 pages.