National Anthems Before Sporting Events

[Billy Z]

9 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Good luck, brother.

Good luck with what? I am not going to try to stop anything one way or the other, it's just an observation.

[boogielicious]

19 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

I believe it does, right or wrong, people are tired of things being cancelled out. So in response some in society push back at anything else that is is threatened to be canceled.

But shouldn’t there be consequences for bad behavior, uttering outrageous things, lying publicly for your own benefit? It’s not really cancel culture, it’s paying the consequences for your actions/statements. Players who’ve knelt made a statement and paid a consequence. They expected and accepted that. Government mandating the anthem will not change that. Too many others have gotten away with a free pass for their actions. They should be held accountable. If it’s canceling them, so be it. 

Let’s keep this thread on track and make posts about the anthem question.

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

I believe it does, right or wrong, people are tired of things being cancelled out. So in response some in society push back at anything else that is is threatened to be canceled.

So you are saying Cuban, the owner of the NBA team that started this, was using this as a way to cancel people? 

No he wasn't. The originator of the kneeling for the anthem, that brought all this anthem stuff to a head, was Colin Kaepernick. Talk about Ironic, that guy was cancelled from the NFL for his actions. 

Like all symbols, the national anthem doesn't just mean the positives for a country, it can make people remember the negatives. I tell you one thing, I HATE the Michigan Fight Song. So fricken annoying. I am sure there are people who hold their head high when they hear that song played. To me, I just want to find a way to turn that damn thing off. Same with the national anthem. There are people who probably don't want to hear it. There are people who get tears in their eyes. 

Here is a quote from Cuban, 

Quote

"We're always talking to our community. That's something [Mavericks CEO Cynthia Marshall] stands for and is very insistent upon and has become a core part of who we are at the Dallas Mavericks," Cuban told ESPN's Rachel Nichols on Wednesday. "In listening to the community, there were quite a few people who voiced their concerns, really their fears that the national anthem did not fully represent them, that their voices were not being heard. So we've had a lot of conversations about whether or not we should play the anthem. And so during the first preseason game, we decided to not play it and just see what the response was, knowing that we were going to have ongoing conversations about it. We didn't make any decision to never play the national anthem then -- that wasn't the case at all. We didn't cancel the national anthem. We still had our flag flying proud up on the wall at the American Airlines Center and everybody had the opportunity to address it and pray to it or salute to it or whatever their feelings are."

This has nothing to do with Cancel Culture. Meaning, it has nothing to do with the Maverick's canceling a persons voice, career, etc... It is them, as a business organization, making a decision that they thing reflected their community, their players, and their fan bases wishes. If a business wants to make a decision that is based more on social impact, then they can do so. 

Now, onto why Texas made this law. 

Here are some quotes... 

Quote

"Texans are tired of sports teams that pander, insulting our national anthem and the men and women who died fighting for our flag," Patrick said in a statement in April. "The passage of SB 4 will ensure Texans can count on hearing the Star Spangled Banner at major sports events throughout the state that are played in venues that taxpayers support. We must always remember that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Quote

“It’s very simple. If they do not want to play the national anthem, they don’t take the tax dollars,” Burrows said. “If we’re going to go ahead and subsidize with hard-earned American dollars the sporting facilities and the teams in the different ways that I think is articulated in this bill, then this would apply.”

There has been no quote that says cancel culture is the reason for his bill. This bill has nothing to do with cancel culture. 

 

 

[mcanadiens]

17 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It is them, as a business organization, making a decision that they thing reflected their community, their players, and their fan bases wishes.

It would have been interesting if this had been a regular year to see if this did anything one way or the other to their attendance.

Maybe Cuban is right. His organization and fan base really would prefer to ditch the national anthem. On the other hand, this might be a sort of ego trip for Cuban. He does have a bit of history that way. 

From what I've seen, Mavs games sell out. If they have full-capacity next year, we'll see if that continues.

[Billy Z]

American flag nearly set fire outside Arizona veteran's home

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Doorbell camera footage shows an individual attempt to set fire to an American flag left...

Here is an example the fruit of cancel culture. People do these kinds of things, get arrested, and that are let out the next day. This peeves people off so they react in ways that may not be ethical as well. All this mess in this country stems right from the top, our leaders.

[saevel25]

Just now, Billy Z said:

 

Here is an example the fruit of cancel culture. People do these kinds of things, get arrested, and that are let out the next day. This peeves people off so they react in ways that may not be ethical as well. All this mess in this country stems right from the top, our leaders.

Jesus, not everything revolves around cancel culture. You have no fricken clue what was behind this. 

I for one despise cancel culture, but I am not going to let it define every opinion I have of why things happen. That is just idiocy. 

The odds are it was done by some deranged asshole. 

[Big Lex]

On military bases, they play the anthem and taps every day on loudspeakers at 5. No matter where you are, even if you're on the golf course, you stop what you're doing, face where the music is coming from, salute, etc. 

So when I hear the anthem any time, like at a game, it just feels like the right thing to do to show respect. And I like the feeling I get when I hear The Star Spangled Banner, and I like the little pause before the game starts, all of it. 

All that said, I'd rather not have it at all than have it be perfunctory or worse "mandatory," which would of course trigger people to "protest" it, etc. etc. 

Playing the anthem may inspire a sense of reverence, but the embodiment of patriotism involves much more than symbols like the flag and the anthem. Better to omit this odd sports custom altogether than to allow it to become something that is insulting to the idea of patriotism. 

[Shorty]

30 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

American flag nearly set fire outside Arizona veteran's home

---

Doorbell camera footage shows an individual attempt to set fire to an American flag left...

Here is an example the fruit of cancel culture. People do these kinds of things, get arrested, and that are let out the next day. This peeves people off so they react in ways that may not be ethical as well. All this mess in this country stems right from the top, our leaders.

This has nothing to do with "cancel culture" which isn't even a real thing.

It has to do with some idiot a-hole behaving like an idiot a-hole.

It is not your leaders causing this -  it is "news" networks focusing on things that are, in the case of your source,  meaningless, insignificant, untrue  or superficially relevant to their position and pretending that the left is obsessed with them.

This particular item you quote is carefully curated to inspire outrage from gullible and uneducated people who can use it as ammunition to push a false narrative. 

OMG - Bill Cosby got "cancelled" because he is a rapist. Racist radio  shock jocks are being "cancelled" because their vile rhetoric is no longer ignored.

And for your information, even a-holes are entitled to the protection of the laws that exist. 

The separation of powers insists that police are not judge, jury and executioner, which is at the heart of this whole thing.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Shorty

[ncates00]

I like having the National Anthem played, nor do I think its playing somehow diminishes its value or significance.

However, I do not like coercion. For me, there may be some constitutional concerns here. Here are some of my thoughts, albeit incomplete: 

) Content-based restrictions target certain topics or messages. Content-based speech regulations receive strict scrutiny review by the courts. Here, the playing of the National Anthem is targeting a certain topic or message, namely, the National Anthem and notions of patriotism.

) To pass strict scrutiny, the government must have a compelling interest (not just a rational one or not even an important one) and the means by which the government regulates must be narrowly tailored (least restrictive) to that compelling governmental interest. The government has the burden to prove they pass strict scrutiny. Here, I do not see a compelling governmental interest. Maybe patriotism? But that's not compelling; maybe it's rational but probably not even important. Even assuming it is compelling, I don't think it is narrowly tailored because you could do other, less coercive things to try to spur on patriotism; maybe hand out American flags to those willing to accept or something.

) Government speech is generally not subject to the First Amendment, and it can espouse whatever views and policies it wishes. Check out the Walker case (2015). However, the First Amendment does constrain the government's ability to compel private parties' speech. Check out Wooley (1977). Here, assuming that the affected parties are not state actors and are private parties, the rule seems to speak for itself--the government can't do it. Just as the government couldn't compel folks to have a message of "live free or die" on their license plates, the government probably cannot mandate the playing of the Anthem because that would be compulsion of private parties to speech.

) This is where it gets a little tricky to me. States have general police powers, so maybe they can attach strings to funding as we see here. If this were the federal government, I think this is a pretty easy case: they can't do it. Congress can tax and spend to provide for the general welfare. They can attach strings to spending conditions, but the strings must relate to the purpose of spending, not violate the Constitution, and cannot be unduly coercive so as to where one simply cannot say no. Check out Sebelius (2012). For example, Congress cannot condition school spending on highway speed limits; highway spending on educational standards; or withhold current Medicaid funding if a state refuses to participate in new Medicaid expansion. Here, if this were the fed, the strings would be invalid because the strings requiring the playing of the Anthem do not appear to relate to government contracts, funding, etc. However, I'm not sure if these rules apply to the states, given that states have general police powers.

Maybe someone else with deeper Con Law knowledge can fill in the gaps.

3 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Let’s keep this thread on track and make posts about the anthem question.

Thank you. I have attempted to address my concerns on the matter here.

Also, the question posed in the poll is a bit undeveloped, in my opinion. Should seems to imply a moral choice, or maybe a rational choice. I think yes it should be played. However, I think its coercion by the government is unconstitutional (see reasons above).

Edited June 2, 2021 by ncates00
added a few words for clarity

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Billy Z said:

Many good points I read through, as far as the cancel culture idea, because of the race card being thrown out every chance people get, because history gets thrown to the wayside too often, a situation like a Texas law making the national anthem mandatory is a result somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to another thing being taken away that people are so fond of. It's like crying wolf too many times, and people are getting tired of it. So whether or not the anthem should be played before sporting events, irrational behavior of cancel culture and unfounded biases has caused people to get overly defensive.

Give it up already. It’s not about cancel culture.

[measureoffsetinnm]

12 hours ago, mcanadiens said:

It would take away any government subsidies or contracts from a professional sports team

I mean this should be done completely independent of whether or not they choose to callously coopt national pride for marketing.

12 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

We kinda do

Yeah you are correct. Very wealthy individuals are a tiny element of the population.

11 hours ago, saevel25 said:

So, good luck. There is no unifying theory on this. 

I can see a unifying theory to the reasons you listed.

[colin007]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:59 AM, boogielicious said:

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written without just the US named at all. Later words were added to make it specific to the USA. It became a marketing tool to sell flags. Now it’s become a forced ritual that can become contentious. The words “under God” we’re added in the 1954 during the McCarthyism era. It is no longer special. Plus, I would rather ‘flag’ be replaced with The Constitution of The United States of America. That would be more meaningful to me. That is the bedrock of our democracy and the basis for all that we do as a nation.

Taking this out of public schools could be a whole 'nother discussion lol

[Billy Z]

I just listened to the National Anthem before the Colorado/Vegas game in Denver, and how a person couldn't enjoy that each and every time it is played before a sporting event is beyond me. Keep up the beautiful tradition!

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

I just listened to the National Anthem before the Colorado/Vegas game in Denver, and how a person couldn't enjoy that each and every time it is played before a sporting event is beyond me. Keep up the beautiful tradition!

I don't think anyone's made an argument about "enjoying" it.

Now is the time to stop playing the national anthem at sporting events

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An emotional NWSL image from the weekend has reminded us that anthem protests are powerful, but also an unfair burden.

Quote

Why now is right time for sports to stop playing the anthem

When was the last time you went to a movie and, after the previews, everyone stood to salute the flag? What about “Jeopardy!” tapings? Does the audience belt out the anthem before the shows begin? Before the main act at a concert, should they play a recording of the national anthem first?

It never made sense to play the national anthem before games in American sports leagues. And yet, all of them do it. The NBA, the NFL and, yes, even the NWSL all force their players to line up and sing to an American flag before they are allowed to do their jobs.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/06/08/sports-leagues-should-stop-playing-national-anthem-before-every-game

https://news.yahoo.com/should-we-stop-playing-the-national-anthem-at-sporting-events-142144603.html

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Overuse of the song dilutes its meaning

“Take it from someone who hears the anthem well more than 100 times a year before different sporting events. … Hearing it before each and every game can be too much of a good thing, leaving Americans immune to its meaning.” — Orrin Schwarz, Daily Herald (Illinois)

Etc.

[ncates00]

35 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

I just listened to the National Anthem before the Colorado/Vegas game in Denver, and how a person couldn't enjoy that each and every time it is played before a sporting event is beyond me. Keep up the beautiful tradition!

I enjoy it as well. Coercion by a government to do it, as seen by the Texas example, however, is a problem. 

[Shorty]

4 hours ago, Billy Z said:

I just listened to the National Anthem before the Colorado/Vegas game in Denver, and how a person couldn't enjoy that each and every time it is played before a sporting event is beyond me. Keep up the beautiful tradition!

The USSR/Russian anthem is one of the most moving pieces of music you'll ever hear. That doesn't mean you have to form a sentimental attachment to it.

The debate isn't about the quality of the music.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Shorty

[Billy Z]

4 hours ago, Shorty said:

The USSR/Russian anthem is one of the most moving pieces of music you'll ever hear. That doesn't mean you have to form a sentimental attachment to it.

The debate isn't about the quality of the music.

Yes that is a very beautiful national anthem, and is nice to hear when I do hear it. The u.s. national anthem is likewise, and I know I don't have to form a Sentimental attachment to it, I choose to anyway. Most eople are so far removed from the 'greatest Generation' that ever lived, and many don't respect and appreciate the country they live in as they should.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Billy Z

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

Yes that is a very beautiful national anthem, and is nice to hear when I do hear it. The u.s. national anthem is likewise, and I know I don't have to form a Sentimental attachment to it, I choose to anyway. Most eople are so far removed from the 'greatest Generation' that ever lived, and many don't respect and appreciate the country they live in as they should.

That’s got nothing to do with hearing the anthem 200 times per year.