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Instructional Video Critique Topic


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On 10/23/2021 at 10:24 AM, iacas said:

No, toe up to toe up is 90 to 90. This is the same 180°.

I mean from 60° at A6 to ~0° vs 90° to ~0°. It’s less squaring required in the same window of the downswing. But yea I see what you mean, it’s the same RoC.

On 10/23/2021 at 10:24 AM, iacas said:

That’s only really true when you measure it in a time based system. This is a distance based system.

Is it not a valid point, though? If the goal of reducing RoC resulted in a slower swing, that might not necessarily be a good thing. Generally when a player changes one element of a swing, others can be affected as well, right?

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On 10/20/2021 at 9:01 PM, iacas said:

Very, very quick video.

Thoughts? Some questions/comments:

  • Do you think 60° to 120° is a lot?
  • Is there a benefit in reducing that number/rotation?
  • Is this something you "do" or something that "happens"?
  • What are some other PGA Tour player numbers? What do you think?

I've seen instruction on trying to match your spin angle at A6 and A8, so like 60˚ open to 60˚ closed. So 180˚ would be a lot by that standard. But I've seen very few pros who do that. They're usually in the 60-90˚ open range at A6 (even DJ with his pre-bowed wrist comes in around 60˚ in the videos I've seen). And almost always past 90˚ closed at A8. How far depends a lot on shot shape as I understand. For example, Morikawa gets to ~90˚ closed at A8. But Rory and Rahm get more to ~120˚ closed.

In the videos I've viewed the correlation is lower but in general I've noticed a similar relationship to the A6 position. Cutters are closer to 60˚ and drawers are closer to 90˚. To me this is a good indication of why most tour pros have gone away from the draw with the driver. Rotating the face 200˚ (90˚ open to 120˚ closed) from A6 to A8 sure seems harder to make pro level consistent than rotating 150˚ (60˚ open to 90˚ closed).

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1 hour ago, billchao said:

I mean from 60° at A6 to ~0° vs 90° to ~0°. It’s less squaring required in the same window of the downswing. But yea I see what you mean, it’s the same RoC.

Ah, okay.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Is it not a valid point, though? If the goal of reducing RoC resulted in a slower swing, that might not necessarily be a good thing. Generally when a player changes one element of a swing, others can be affected as well, right?

I was responding to you saying "RoC is related to clubhead speed." It's true in a time-based system. If a player goes from 90° to 90° from A6 to A8, that's 180° in that "distance," but if they swing at 92 MPH their "rate of closure" in a time-based system (i.e. RPM) is going to be slower, almost surely, than someone who goes 90° to 90° at 132 MPH.

So, you can reduce RoC (distance) while swinging faster, increase RoC (distance) while swinging slower, etc.

I'm just making the point that it's important to understand whether you're talking about it in time (RPM) or distance (whether that's within the foot before/after impact or from A6 to A8 or something like that).


34 minutes ago, mdl said:

I've seen instruction on trying to match your spin angle at A6 and A8, so like 60˚ open to 60˚ closed. So 180˚ would be a lot by that standard. But I've seen very few pros who do that.

Few do, yeah. But instructionally, it's more about how some amateurs do it versus how the pros do it.

Most amateur golfers will stall the pivot, and the clubhead will more "overtake" as part of a flip/roll. PGA Tour players don't stall the body, so I'm often trying to reduce a little closure to encourage the body to do a lot more work.

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

How far depends a lot on shot shape as I understand.

I don't know if I'd say that.

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

For example, Morikawa gets to ~90˚ closed at A8. But Rory and Rahm get more to ~120˚ closed.

These aren't "measurements" by any stretch, but…

Garcia.jpgJohnsonD.jpgJohnsonZ.jpgMorikawa.jpgRahm.jpg

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

To me this is a good indication of why most tour pros have gone away from the draw with the driver. Rotating the face 200˚ (90˚ open to 120˚ closed) from A6 to A8 sure seems harder to make pro level consistent than rotating 150˚ (60˚ open to 90˚ closed).

I think you'd be surprised at how many PGA Tour players draw their drivers.

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  • Do you think 60° to 120° is a lot? - No. I the UTL videos I have seen shows these to be about right with these numbers.
  • Is there a benefit in reducing that number/rotation? Yes, in certain types of shots. IMHO, 3/4 wedge swing shots for a more controlled trajectory requires 'holding' (speaking very loosely) and hence less face rotation. Spins a bit less because of lower spin loft.  
  • Is this something you "do" or something that "happens"? - Yes, it requires 'intention', longer, wider arc and a bit more of a freewheeling motion and a more active 'toe drive' through impact. But def not by actively rotating hands (I think that would qualify as a flip). 
  • What are some other PGA Tour player numbers? What do you think? - This is purely a guess. DJ has a lower ROC (already shut face at A4) compared to let's say Phil. Can't tell exact numbers. We need to get them on GEARS. Heh.
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On 6/21/2021 at 7:59 AM, iacas said:

 

  • Would have loved to show advanced versions, like where you can manipulate the path a bit by how much the arms come off the chest, etc.

I’d love to hear more about this. I’ve used the finish low to draw, high to fade. For me that tends to get me more push slice flare or low bullet hook (like not quite duck hook). Admittedly I’ve never really looked super hard into it nor  practiced it super hard.

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13 minutes ago, mdl said:

I’d love to hear more about this. I’ve used the finish low to draw, high to fade. For me that tends to get me more push slice flare or low bullet hook (like not quite duck hook). Admittedly I’ve never really looked super hard into it nor  practiced it super hard.

Generally it's the opposite, actually… 😉 

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19 hours ago, iacas said:

Generally it's the opposite, actually… 😉 

Interesting. I've used finish low as a key to roll over my wrists sooner without actively rolling them. Finish high is the opposite. For me at least while the D-plane near the ball might be tilted right for draw and left for fade – which if you keep a perfect swing plan all the way through would mean low finish for fade and high for draw – the effect of thinking high/low finish has been the opposite. That's Morikawa's feel too.

 

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5 hours ago, mdl said:

Interesting. I've used finish low as a key to roll over my wrists sooner without actively rolling them. Finish high is the opposite. For me at least while the D-plane near the ball might be tilted right for draw and left for fade – which if you keep a perfect swing plan all the way through would mean low finish for fade and high for draw – the effect of thinking high/low finish has been the opposite. That's Morikawa's feel too.

Sure, but… you two are in the minority. Faders (slicers) exit low and left. Drawers/hookers high and right. Generally speaking.

Collin's comment in that video is very brief.

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On 10/27/2021 at 5:54 PM, iacas said:

Sure, but… you two are in the minority. Faders (slicers) exit low and left. Drawers/hookers high and right. Generally speaking.

Collin's comment in that video is very brief.

Ha. Fair enough.

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