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Bonds Fails to Get Into the HOF


iacas
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  • iacas changed the title to Bonds Fails to Get Into the HOF
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16 minutes ago, Bo the Golfer said:

I've either heard or read it for years that HOF voters would snub the steroid guys. Guess that wasn't fake news. Psyched to see Big Papi get in. 

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

Snub being a verb that means spurn disdainfully I thought worked perfectly. The criteria certainly spells out what Bonds and Clemens lacked. 

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The truly sad part of this situation is Barry Bonds was a hall of famer before all the home runs. He didn't need all of that steroid stuff. He was a fantastic baseball player before he chose to do that. He had 5 seasons of 30/30 and a season of 40/40. Really a good player.

I side with @iacas not only because he did it, but then to vehemently deny it when it was obvious. The circumstantial evidence alone was damning, then the details that followed proved what we knew. He should have just said he did it.

Strange thing is, he was never liked. Even when playing with the Pirates he was hated, and then once the steroid thing went down he had few defenders because everyone disliked him. His ill-fated reality show was basically a display of how unhappy he was about being unloved.

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The name of this topic could have been "Barry Bonds fails to get his giant steroid infused head into the HOF"

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I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

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3 minutes ago, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Some good points here also made by some of the voters. Both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers before their steroid use too. Tough call though considering criteria shown above.

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Integrity, sportsmanship and character.

Obviously a pretty subjective and selectively applied criteria in the case of the Baseball Hall of Fame. There are definitely some pretty shady characters enshrined in Cooperstown. I think the commonality between the steroid-era guys and the gamblers (like our buddy that played down I-75) is that those guys embarrassed Major League Baseball.  

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1 hour ago, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

I would have completely agreed with you if he just admitted it. Instead he hung his hat on the claim that he never did it. He could have used the excuse you shared. Everyone was doing it, and steroids don't improve the hand eye coordination of baseballers.

Alas, his denial, basically throughout is what stops me from agreeing.

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12 minutes ago, mchepp said:

I would have completely agreed with you if he just admitted it. Instead he hung his hat on the claim that he never did it. He could have used the excuse you shared. Everyone was doing it, and steroids don't improve the hand eye coordination of baseballers.

Alas, his denial, basically throughout is what stops me from agreeing.

I think that’s part of why Yankees fans forgave Andy Pettitte but not Roger Clemens. Pettitte came out and admitted it, apologized for it, and accepted whatever his fate was going to be from that. Clemens was the embodiment of a Shaggy song. At one point I think he tried to say the HGH was for his wife or something IIRC. It was just ridiculous.

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On 1/25/2022 at 11:06 PM, iacas said:

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

There are plenty of players in the HOF who fail those 3 parts in bold. Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford admitted to doctoring baseballs, Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell admitted to using Andro (Just because it was legal to purchase at the time doesn't mean it wasn't a PED), hell Mickey Mantle injected himself with steroids and amphetamines in 1961 when he was in the home run race with Roger Maris, Goose Gossage admitted to using amphetamines, Tim Raines admitted to using cocaine before, during, and after games (“It’s undisputed truth that I would sneak a snort in the clubhouse bathroom between innings")

Doctoring baseballs, injecting yourself with amphetamines, cocaine usage during games, those don't sound like people who show integrity, sportsmanship, and character to me yet they are all in the HOF.

3 hours ago, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

I'm in agreement with this. I think they should both be in.

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4 hours ago, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Agree...Ty Cobb and many others lacked in the same qualities, and didn't Big Papi also have a "dubious result" on a PED test? Not to mention spitballers, bat corkers, and other methods of gaining an edge.

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7 minutes ago, KMP said:

Agree...Ty Cobb and many others lacked in the same qualities, and didn't Big Papi also have a "dubious result" on a PED test? Not to mention spitballers, bat corkers, and other methods of gaining an edge.

He was on a list published by the New York Times in 2009 which indicated that he was 1 of 104 players who tested positive for PEDs in 2003, but it is unknown what substance he actually tested positive for. “Some things to keep in mind when evaluating David Ortiz. We know he was on a list, but we don’t know what he took, if it was banned at the time, what the levels were, whether it was something that plausibly could have become from a supplement,”

So personally I wouldn't evaluate him with the same lens as I would Bonds or Clemens, though I do think all 3 deserve to be in the HOF.

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Spitballers, etc. aren’t remotely in the same category.

Nor is doing greenies when they weren’t illegal. The Steelers (and many others) did steroids in the 70s. It wasn’t the same then.

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

Spitballers, etc. aren’t remotely in the same category.

How isn't it? If the category we are talking about is cheating the game, or lacking integrity, sportsmanship, or character, surely someone purposefully cheating lacks those qualities, right?

The spitball and all other pitches involving doctoring the ball became illegal in 1920, and Gaylord Perry pitched in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Quote

Perry claims he was taught the spitball in 1964 by pitcher Bob Shaw. Perry had a reputation throughout his career for doctoring baseballs, and was inspected on the mound by umpires and monitored closely by opposing teams. On August 23, 1982, he was ejected from a game against the Boston Red Sox for doctoring the ball, and given a 10-day suspension. Gene Tenace, who caught Gaylord Perry when they played for the San Diego Padres, said: "I can remember a couple of occasions when I couldn't throw the ball back to him because it was so greasy that it slipped out of my hands. I just walked out to the mound and flipped the ball back to him."

 

Whitey Ford:

Quote

used his wedding ring to cut the ball, or had catcher Elston Howard put a nice slice in it with a buckle on his shin guard. Ford also planted mud pies around the mound and used them to load the ball. He confessed that when pitching against the Dodgers in the 1963 World Series, "I used enough mud to build a dam." He also threw a "gunk ball," which combined a mixture of baby oil, turpentine, and resin." 

 

How can you say those guys had integrity, sportsmanship, and character? They knowingly cheated. 

 

And what about Tim Raines openly admitting to using cocaine during games even though it had been illegal for roughly 70 years? How does that show integrity, sportsmanship, or character?

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1 hour ago, klineka said:

How isn't it? If the category we are talking about is cheating the game, or lacking integrity, sportsmanship, or character, surely someone purposefully cheating lacks those qualities, right?

Because it's not. Baseball, sports, the world was different then.

"If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'." That doesn't really apply to steroids like you could say it applies to nicking the ball a little with your wedding ring. Scuffing the ball, putting something on the ball, that the umpires can check. That's on the field. Football players commit penalties - are they cheating? Or is it just against the rules in a way that's different than taking steroids?

Hell, baseball lets you — encourages you — to STEAL! :D

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