Jump to content
Note: This thread is 1117 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator

Good!

76028692-e1643155542159.jpg?w=640

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens have been snubbed from Cooperstown.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thumbs Up 3

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • iacas changed the title to Bonds Fails to Get Into the HOF

I've either heard or read it for years that HOF voters would snub the steroid guys. Guess that wasn't fake news. Psyched to see Big Papi get in. 

BO THE GOLFER

In my Top Flite stand bag:

Driver-Ping G400+ 10.5 degrees regular flex Hybrids-Ping I25 17 & 20 degrees stiff flex Irons-Ping I3 O-size 4 through lob wedge regular flex Putter-Nike Oz 6


  • Administrator
  On 1/26/2022 at 3:49 AM, Bo the Golfer said:

I've either heard or read it for years that HOF voters would snub the steroid guys. Guess that wasn't fake news. Psyched to see Big Papi get in. 

Expand  

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:06 AM, iacas said:

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

Expand  

Snub being a verb that means spurn disdainfully I thought worked perfectly. The criteria certainly spells out what Bonds and Clemens lacked. 

BO THE GOLFER

In my Top Flite stand bag:

Driver-Ping G400+ 10.5 degrees regular flex Hybrids-Ping I25 17 & 20 degrees stiff flex Irons-Ping I3 O-size 4 through lob wedge regular flex Putter-Nike Oz 6


The truly sad part of this situation is Barry Bonds was a hall of famer before all the home runs. He didn't need all of that steroid stuff. He was a fantastic baseball player before he chose to do that. He had 5 seasons of 30/30 and a season of 40/40. Really a good player.

I side with @iacas not only because he did it, but then to vehemently deny it when it was obvious. The circumstantial evidence alone was damning, then the details that followed proved what we knew. He should have just said he did it.

Strange thing is, he was never liked. Even when playing with the Pirates he was hated, and then once the steroid thing went down he had few defenders because everyone disliked him. His ill-fated reality show was basically a display of how unhappy he was about being unloved.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Michael

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The name of this topic could have been "Barry Bonds fails to get his giant steroid infused head into the HOF"

—Adam

 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
  On 1/27/2022 at 3:59 PM, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Expand  

Some good points here also made by some of the voters. Both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers before their steroid use too. Tough call though considering criteria shown above.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

boogielicious - Adjective describing the perfect surf wave

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Integrity, sportsmanship and character.

Obviously a pretty subjective and selectively applied criteria in the case of the Baseball Hall of Fame. There are definitely some pretty shady characters enshrined in Cooperstown. I think the commonality between the steroid-era guys and the gamblers (like our buddy that played down I-75) is that those guys embarrassed Major League Baseball.  

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:59 PM, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Expand  

I would have completely agreed with you if he just admitted it. Instead he hung his hat on the claim that he never did it. He could have used the excuse you shared. Everyone was doing it, and steroids don't improve the hand eye coordination of baseballers.

Alas, his denial, basically throughout is what stops me from agreeing.

Michael

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
  On 1/27/2022 at 5:25 PM, mchepp said:

I would have completely agreed with you if he just admitted it. Instead he hung his hat on the claim that he never did it. He could have used the excuse you shared. Everyone was doing it, and steroids don't improve the hand eye coordination of baseballers.

Alas, his denial, basically throughout is what stops me from agreeing.

Expand  

I think that’s part of why Yankees fans forgave Andy Pettitte but not Roger Clemens. Pettitte came out and admitted it, apologized for it, and accepted whatever his fate was going to be from that. Clemens was the embodiment of a Shaggy song. At one point I think he tried to say the HGH was for his wife or something IIRC. It was just ridiculous.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:06 AM, iacas said:

It's in the criteria. It's not a snub, it's literally like 3 of the 6 things that they judge them on:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.'

I bolded the ones Bonds and Clemens clearly fail.

Expand  

There are plenty of players in the HOF who fail those 3 parts in bold. Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford admitted to doctoring baseballs, Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell admitted to using Andro (Just because it was legal to purchase at the time doesn't mean it wasn't a PED), hell Mickey Mantle injected himself with steroids and amphetamines in 1961 when he was in the home run race with Roger Maris, Goose Gossage admitted to using amphetamines, Tim Raines admitted to using cocaine before, during, and after games (“It’s undisputed truth that I would sneak a snort in the clubhouse bathroom between innings")

Doctoring baseballs, injecting yourself with amphetamines, cocaine usage during games, those don't sound like people who show integrity, sportsmanship, and character to me yet they are all in the HOF.

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:59 PM, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Expand  

I'm in agreement with this. I think they should both be in.

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:59 PM, billchao said:

I’m going to go against the grain here and say that Bonds and Clemens should have gotten in. MLB history is rife with players using all sorts of things for an advantage; this is not unique to the “Steroid Era.” There are players in the HoF who are suspected of PED use and others who have admitted to using other illegal substances.

My impression from this is that neither of these players were known to be particularly likeable so their baseball sins aren’t forgiven.

Expand  

Agree...Ty Cobb and many others lacked in the same qualities, and didn't Big Papi also have a "dubious result" on a PED test? Not to mention spitballers, bat corkers, and other methods of gaining an edge.


  On 1/27/2022 at 8:31 PM, KMP said:

Agree...Ty Cobb and many others lacked in the same qualities, and didn't Big Papi also have a "dubious result" on a PED test? Not to mention spitballers, bat corkers, and other methods of gaining an edge.

Expand  

He was on a list published by the New York Times in 2009 which indicated that he was 1 of 104 players who tested positive for PEDs in 2003, but it is unknown what substance he actually tested positive for. “Some things to keep in mind when evaluating David Ortiz. We know he was on a list, but we don’t know what he took, if it was banned at the time, what the levels were, whether it was something that plausibly could have become from a supplement,”

So personally I wouldn't evaluate him with the same lens as I would Bonds or Clemens, though I do think all 3 deserve to be in the HOF.

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator

Spitballers, etc. aren’t remotely in the same category.

Nor is doing greenies when they weren’t illegal. The Steelers (and many others) did steroids in the 70s. It wasn’t the same then.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  On 1/27/2022 at 9:29 PM, iacas said:

Spitballers, etc. aren’t remotely in the same category.

Expand  

How isn't it? If the category we are talking about is cheating the game, or lacking integrity, sportsmanship, or character, surely someone purposefully cheating lacks those qualities, right?

The spitball and all other pitches involving doctoring the ball became illegal in 1920, and Gaylord Perry pitched in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

  Quote

Perry claims he was taught the spitball in 1964 by pitcher Bob Shaw. Perry had a reputation throughout his career for doctoring baseballs, and was inspected on the mound by umpires and monitored closely by opposing teams. On August 23, 1982, he was ejected from a game against the Boston Red Sox for doctoring the ball, and given a 10-day suspension. Gene Tenace, who caught Gaylord Perry when they played for the San Diego Padres, said: "I can remember a couple of occasions when I couldn't throw the ball back to him because it was so greasy that it slipped out of my hands. I just walked out to the mound and flipped the ball back to him."

Expand  

 

Whitey Ford:

  Quote

used his wedding ring to cut the ball, or had catcher Elston Howard put a nice slice in it with a buckle on his shin guard. Ford also planted mud pies around the mound and used them to load the ball. He confessed that when pitching against the Dodgers in the 1963 World Series, "I used enough mud to build a dam." He also threw a "gunk ball," which combined a mixture of baby oil, turpentine, and resin." 

Expand  

 

How can you say those guys had integrity, sportsmanship, and character? They knowingly cheated. 

 

And what about Tim Raines openly admitting to using cocaine during games even though it had been illegal for roughly 70 years? How does that show integrity, sportsmanship, or character?

Driver: :titleist:  GT3
Woods:  :cobra: Darkspeed LS 3Wood
Irons: :titleist: U505 (3)  :tmade: P770 (4-PW)
Wedges: :callaway: MD3 50   :titleist: SM9 54/58  
Putter: :tmade: Spider X

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
  On 1/27/2022 at 9:49 PM, klineka said:

How isn't it? If the category we are talking about is cheating the game, or lacking integrity, sportsmanship, or character, surely someone purposefully cheating lacks those qualities, right?

Expand  

Because it's not. Baseball, sports, the world was different then.

"If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'." That doesn't really apply to steroids like you could say it applies to nicking the ball a little with your wedding ring. Scuffing the ball, putting something on the ball, that the umpires can check. That's on the field. Football players commit penalties - are they cheating? Or is it just against the rules in a way that's different than taking steroids?

Hell, baseball lets you — encourages you — to STEAL! :D

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1117 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...