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Contrived/Manipulated Fittings?


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Yesterday I attended a demo/fitting at my local course using Trackman.  It was put on by a single clubmaker/OEM.  I hit various drivers vs. my current gamer.  At the end I tried a few 7 irons vs. my current 7 iron.

Here's the deal.  Both in person and in the data that was later emailed to me it was stated that the new drivers were 40 yards longer than my gamer.  And that the new 7 iron was 8 yards longer, same lofts.

PROBLEM:  I have eyes.  They see pretty well.  I could see where my drives were rolling out to.  My gamer was consistently longer than the new drivers... at worst, the same yardage.

Is this a Trackman issue?  Or is it a salesman/operator/upsell/honesty issue?

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It could be either. Was the rep watching you hit, or just watching the Trackman? If so, I would think the machine was wrong. It’s also possible he thought he could get an easy sale by giving you bad data. I’m old, and my eyes are not as good as they used to be, but I sure wouldn’t need a machine to tell me I was hitting one club 40 yards longer.

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That's the thing.  The rep was watching me hit and tossing in comments... "Nice baby draw", "You caught that one", "Good swing".  But I don't think he watched any balls all the way to their final destination.  Again, my gamer was going further than his drivers.

Bottom line:  Not an easy sale.  I want accurate data... not BS.  I understand wanting to sell some clubs, but don't do it through deceit.  Let the clubs speak for themselves.  If my old driver outdrives all his new clubs he should just man up and say, "Kudos to your old driver... what make is that?"

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5 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Both in person and in the data that was later emailed to me it was stated that the new drivers were 40 yards longer than my gamer.

This is the part I don’t understand.

Why didn’t you say something?

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I didn't know you could manipulate Trackman data. Maybe you can apply different settings (IDK, wind, temperature) to change results. It's not like you can type over it. Interesting.

Was your current driver data good or reasonable? 

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(edited)
1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is the part I don’t understand.

Why didn’t you say something?

Good question.  Because in person he just gave me the other data; not the carry or total distance.  When I got home and looked at the data it was totally skewed.  I did 3 baseline shots with my own driver... hit them all very well.  240-260.  The data showed one had a carry distance of 137 yards.  Didn't happen.

19 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Was your current driver data good or reasonable? 

No.

Edited by Double Mocha Man
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1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Good question.  Because in person he just gave me the other data; not the carry or total distance.  When I got home and looked at the data it was totally skewed.  I did 3 baseline shots with my own driver... hit them all very well.  240-260.  The data showed one had a carry distance of 137 yards.  Didn't happen.

So was the data saying 40 yards longer on average?  If so, this is your answer.  3 balls for a baseline and one of those is 120 yards less than it actually went, that would be your 40 yards.

I have trackman at my local range, and every now and then they seem to pick up something other than my ball.  I've had the occasional shot that trackman isn't even close...its not frequent but if your data is based on averages one ball could be the difference maker.

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4 minutes ago, Friz said:

I have trackman at my local range, and every now and then they seem to pick up something other than my ball. 

Yep, I think it picked up on a giant murder hornet, exhibiting backspin.

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Just now, Vinsk said:

@Double Mocha Man Let’s just cut to the chase. You were hitting:037B234F-780C-4FEB-91E5-51FDE132A7E1.thumb.jpeg.3c36a47a3079733e3f46ffeb3ebe97e2.jpegThere’s those 40 yards! 

Ya got me.  You figured it out.  Now I need to bag the "Chipper" and one of those stand-up putters.

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(edited)

It's entirely plausible that the fitter is unscrupulous, but it seems more likely to me that there was a misread on one of your baseline shots. The good news is, it sounds like you have a setup that works well for you.

Maybe try yelling "boom!" When you hit your current driver to make up some of the yardage.

Edited by roejye
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3 minutes ago, roejye said:

It's entirely plausible that the fitter is unscrupulous, but it seems more likely to me that there was a misread on one of your baseline shots. The good news is, it sounds like you have a setup that works well for you.

Maybe try yelling "boom!" When you hit your current driver to make up some of the yardage.

Good one.  Thanks.  But the problem is the guy kept pushing his drivers when (if he looked) he could see I was hitting my own driver just as far or farther.  When I went into the session I told him I was looking for more distance and at least the same accuracy.

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@Double Mocha Man didn’t say it but I was there helping the fitters. Not in the actual fitting of people but as the pro and “to make the sale.” I was helping a couple people. Some ladies were swinging way too hard and couldn’t make contact to give good readings on trackman.

I saw @Double Mocha Manman hit the driver and sure he hit them well but definitely not 40yds better. The fitter also said several things on flight data that was clear he was milking it a bit. I didn’t know they said it was 40yds. I would’ve believed 5-10yds at most. Also we only use flight limited balls at this range so a couple data points were not accurate. 

I’m always as honest as I can be. I’ll “make the sale” if I think it’s a good idea or if the person really wants it. I won’t lie about ball flight data or what a club can do. So that environment was hard for me. 

It was also weird. I used their driver a couple times towards the end because I hadn’t hit it before. The moment I asked to test it on their trackman, both their monitors both died… maybe they wanted to just pack up and go but it still took them over an hour to leave. Makes me wonder what truly was going on. 

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12 minutes ago, phillyk said:

@Double Mocha Man didn’t say it but I was there helping the fitters. Not in the actual fitting of people but as the pro and “to make the sale.” I was helping a couple people. Some ladies were swinging way too hard and couldn’t make contact to give good readings on trackman.

I saw @Double Mocha Manman hit the driver and sure he hit them well but definitely not 40yds better. The fitter also said several things on flight data that was clear he was milking it a bit. I didn’t know they said it was 40yds. I would’ve believed 5-10yds at most. Also we only use flight limited balls at this range so a couple data points were not accurate. 

I’m always as honest as I can be. I’ll “make the sale” if I think it’s a good idea or if the person really wants it. I won’t lie about ball flight data or what a club can do. So that environment was hard for me. 

It was also weird. I used their driver a couple times towards the end because I hadn’t hit it before. The moment I asked to test it on their trackman, both their monitors both died… maybe they wanted to just pack up and go but it still took them over an hour to leave. Makes me wonder what truly was going on. 

I recall after my session (last one of the day) you asking to hit a few drivers and the guy gave some lame (to me) excuse for not letting you do that.  Oh well.  And I've always found you to be completely truthful and forthcoming in fittings and in giving tips.

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Definitely sounds like an unscrupulous fitter to me. Unfortunate, but there's a lot of that sort of stuff in golf.

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Double Mocha Man, I use Trackman almost everyday during demo days/ clubfittings.  Here’s something  for you…

What he emailed you, did you see  every shot on there that gave the club a 40 yard advantage amd did you see every shot on there from your own club or did he just send you the average?

Heres why I asked… Trackman makes errors and if the operator doesn’t notice, you’ll end up with that 40 yard gain.  On occasion mine will read back spin of 227 and the distance will be wrong.  The 227 error is common on one of the ones I use.  Also, sometime is get a total misread with zero launch angle, zero spin and the yardage will be something like 542 yards, 665 yards.  Something I always catch and have a laugh over with the customer.  BUT… imagine if I didn’t catch a 665 yard misread, it ended up as part of the average I sent you??  There is your 40 yards.

I bring the customer in on the fitting. I show him all the lines of the shots he hit amd then show him the average.  He sees it all with me AND he gets it on email.

So this is a huge possibility of what happened.  I’d do it again and ask to look at it there with him.  The irons I believe…8-10 yards is what I see a lot.  40 yards on a driver is possible but you need to see line by line both drivers and look at the spin amd launch numbers… something might not add up.

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On 5/28/2022 at 12:19 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

Yesterday I attended a demo/fitting at my local course using Trackman.  It was put on by a single clubmaker/OEM.  I hit various drivers vs. my current gamer.  At the end I tried a few 7 irons vs. my current 7 iron.

Here's the deal.  Both in person and in the data that was later emailed to me it was stated that the new drivers were 40 yards longer than my gamer.  And that the new 7 iron was 8 yards longer, same lofts.

PROBLEM:  I have eyes.  They see pretty well.  I could see where my drives were rolling out to.  My gamer was consistently longer than the new drivers... at worst, the same yardage.

Is this a Trackman issue?  Or is it a salesman/operator/upsell/honesty issue?

The new drivers are just gamers you have yet to meet. 🤣

Honestly, you seem pretty cognizant of what you can do on the golf course and you will not be conned. After reading @phillyk's comments it seems that there was something legitimately afoot. I watched a video from Mark Crossfield that seemed to be appropriate to people that just want to upsell and manipulate data. Don't know if this applies, but it is a harsh commentary for MC. 

 

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TourSpoon... thanks for the video.  Makes me wonder.  With the driver the guy recommended I liked the shot shape and the height.  But it still didn't go longer than my gamer (by eyeball, staring the ball down until it finished its roll out).  So unless I want to buy the shot shape and height I won't be making any purchases.

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