Sandbagging in Club Tournaments

[Vinsk]

This is where you are wrong.  "Anybody" can't be a low handicap.  "Anybody" lacks the hand/eye coordination to consistently hit the shots required for it.  If you believe it's within "Anyone's" reach, then you are fantasizing.  If that's all it took then half the guys I knew in the men's club would have been there.  I know guys who spent 4 evenings a week at the range, worked their asses off, played 2 or 3 rounds every weekend, and still never sniffed a handicap below 10.  You are somehow not seeing reality.

+1 on this. I was a collegiate athlete and have played golf on and off for over 30yrs. I'm an 8hcp but still have the profound talent of firing a 90 here and there. I practice relentlessly.

[nick1998bunker]

This is where you are wrong.  "Anybody" can't be a low handicap.  "Anybody" lacks the hand/eye coordination to consistently hit the shots required for it.  If you believe it's within "Anyone's" reach, then you are fantasizing.  If that's all it took then half the guys I knew in the men's club would have been there.  I know guys who spent 4 evenings a week at the range, worked their asses off, played 2 or 3 rounds every weekend, and still never sniffed a handicap below 10.  You are somehow not seeing reality.

With the correct approach or somebody to make them do the correct aproach, the -Vast majority- of people could get to a 9 handicap. I only know 1 person who has taken up golf as their main hobby who is not a 9 handicap yet and he has been playing for a year. Maybe I am wrong, and I will admit there are a lot of people who do not know what they are doing, but I still think that with a little dedication almost everybody can reach a 9 handicap, all though it could take 3 months to 3 decades. Also, I don't know what kind of swing you have but I don't use any hand eye coordination in my swing. I feel where the club is and repeat a similar motion. I can even swing with my eyes closed with fairly decent results @vinsk maybe you are not practicing good technique or the right way.

[DrvFrShow]

The vast majority of people could... if they practiced a lot... could do it. The thing is most people don't have the time to practice a lot. Some people just can't practice a lot.

[rkim291968]

I know guys who spent 4 evenings a week at the range, worked their asses off, played 2 or 3 rounds every weekend, and still never sniffed a handicap below 10.  You are somehow not seeing reality.

You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you talking to me? Well I'm the only one here. Who the f*** do you think you're talking to? Oh yeah? OK.

-Travis

[isukgolf]

@rkim291968 I am %110 percent he is talking to me ...:beer:

[Vinsk]

@vinsk maybe you are not practicing good technique or the right way.

Well, this is possible. But damn, I have the 5SK system and use all the drills...and use them often. On the range I'm a star. I don't pound golf balls. I spend hours focusing on the 5 keys. I'm a horrible videographer and am going to get some kinda bag clip to hold my phone so I can submit video. However that kind of learning is difficult for me...I'm better with on the moment hands on learning. I'm moving to Florida next month which will increase my golf playing as well as access to instruction, but I'm seriously considering going to see Erik at his facility in PA. It's ridiculous I play so poorly with the amount of practice I put in.

[Adubya65]

What are the odds of a 16 handicap shooting an even par 71 in the final round of his first club championship?  He shot 86 the first day which I can accept. Then net 55 day 2.

Hadn't posted a single round since April, all of which were in the 90's.  2 day net 125 to win by 4 shots over my buddy (a 14) that shot 80-77 (he's broken 80 many times but not in the past 2 years and has struggled most of the year and posted every score).

How do we fix this? Our club is not private and there's no real policing of who is posting and who isn't.

[newtogolf]

It's a good system, IMO.   Just having it will likely push the would be sandbaggers to behave better.   The same set of guys winning unusual number of tournaments year after year is what my club is facing.   Some are, IMO, blatant examples, like only recording few numbers all year and using that higher handicap for tournament play.  This likely caused the committee to send out notice to record/submit all scores, and the club will start entering tournament scores instead leaving it to players.   The typical reasons of "I focus better on tournament," "I got lucky" don't translate well when they are defying the odd.

A subtle sandbagging I have witnessed repeatedly is that when a match is over in essence, I've seen players suddenly play lousy the rest of the way (missing gimmie range putts, not focusing on ball strikes).    For example, two guys play a club match play.  One plays well and wins the match 5 & 4.  For the remaining 4 holes, he goofs off and adds strokes to his excellent score through 14th hole.   First time I've seen this, my reaction was "what? why?"     I used to play straight up match with my brother.  There were 2 handicap stroke difference between two of us.   And 2 is enough of a skill set difference such that the lower handicap of us won majority (like 75%) of the straight up matches.   These subtle sandbagging can add up to make the difference (a few strokes) in winning a match play or not.

Despite this, I will continue to play in tournaments.   One day, I will have the odd defying round of my life and win one.   Until then, I will be enjoying the experience.

How do you post a score during match play when holes are conceded and the other player doesn't post an actual score for the hole?

[Vinsk]

Quite remarkable. I'm an 8 hcp and shot a 71 years ago at a rather easy track. @Iacas would have a better assessment than I, but it sounds suspicious to me.

[DaveP043]

How do you post a score during match play when holes are conceded and the other player doesn't post an actual score for the hole?

In match play, if you don't finish a hole you're supposed to post the score that you most likely would have made had you completed it.  Its up to the individual golfer to determine the most likely score.  You can refer to Section 4 in the handicap manual:

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/

Sure, it allows the potential for inflating scores, but in theory golf is a sport for gentlemen (and gentlewomen).

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

What are the odds of a 16 handicap shooting an even par 71 in the final round of his first club championship?  He shot 86 the first day which I can accept. Then net 55 day 2.   Hadn't posted a single round since April, all of which were in the 90's.  2 day net 125 to win by 4 shots over my buddy (a 14) that shot 80-77 (he's broken 80 many times but not in the past 2 years and has struggled most of the year and posted every score).  How do we fix this? Our club is not private and there's no real policing of who is posting and who isn't.

What are the odds of a LEGIT 16 handicap shooting 71 in the final round of a club championship? I'd say zero chance.

[Adubya65]

What are the odds of a LEGIT 16 handicap shooting 71 in the final round of a club championship? I'd say zero chance.

Exactly my thoughts.  The course is not easy and I've only seen a couple people shoot par or better on it and they were sub 4 handicaps.

I'm a 12 and I've shot even par for 9 ONCE in 17 years and even then I was playing out of my mind.  My best for 18 is 77 and it was not in a tournament.

To make matters even worse, they put the pins in some very difficult locations making 71 even more unlikely.

Best round for anyone (even the low handicappers) for the entire tournament outside that 71 was 73 by a 4 handicap.

[newtogolf]

In match play, if you don't finish a hole you're supposed to post the score that you most likely would have made had you completed it.  Its up to the individual golfer to determine the most likely score.  You can refer to Section 4 in the handicap manual:

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/

Sure, it allows the potential for inflating scores, but in theory golf is a sport for gentlemen (and gentlewomen).

Thanks, I would think that could potentially add a lot of fluff to ones score in either direction.

[DaveP043]

I'd probably have protested his handicap, if he hasn't posted anything since April.  To have a valid USGA handicap, there HAS to be a committee overlooking the system.  Not posting anything for over 3 months is beyond suspicious.

[DaveP043]

Thanks, I would think that could potentially add a lot of fluff to ones score in either direction.

No question it leaves the handicap postings open to some interpretation.  I know when I play inter-club matches, we make sure that each group agrees on what scores are to be posted, and the postings are generally checked by the team captain within a week or so of the matches.  When I play matches at my home club, I make it a point to confer with my opponent about what score to post.  I'd like to believe that most golfers are honest, and want their handicap to be accurate.  I know there are a few cheats out there (I'll consistently call sandbaggers for what they are...cheaters), but I believe they're a small minority.

[mcanadiens]

To think I was worried about being accused of sandbagging a couple of months ago. Back then I thought I was on the rise. No problem. I yacked all over myself for two straight rounds. Finished dead last.

[rkim291968]

To think I was worried about being accused of sandbagging a couple of months ago. Back then I thought I was on the rise.

No problem. I yacked all over myself for two straight rounds. Finished dead last.

That's how handicap system supposed to work.  Things average out for most of us.   For the few who sandbags, they stack the deck in their favor and you will see them consistently do better over a long period of time.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

How do you post a score during match play when holes are conceded and the other player doesn't post an actual score for the hole?

In match play, if you don't finish a hole you're supposed to post the score that you most likely would have made had you completed it.  Its up to the individual golfer to determine the most likely score.  You can refer to Section 4 in the handicap manual:

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/

Sure, it allows the potential for inflating scores, but in theory golf is a sport for gentlemen (and gentlewomen).

You have described the rule for unfinished holes, but you may have holes that aren't played at all in match play and for that the rule is different.  Let's say you close out a match 4 & 3 and do not play the rest of the holes.  In that case for the 3 holes you did not play you would score par plus any allowed hcap strokes (IOW, a net par), section 5-2b of the handicap manual. (I suspect you already well know this, but some might not and I'm just clarifying)

Quote:

b. Posting a Score When a Complete Round is not Played

If 13 or more holes are played, the player must post an 18-hole score. If 7 to 12 holes are played, the player must post a nine-hole score. In either case, scores for unplayed holes must be recorded as par plus any handicap strokes that the player is entitled to receive on the unplayed holes. (See Section 4-2 and 5-1a .)

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 30 stops playing after 16 holes because of darkness. Hole 17 is a par 3 and is the number 18 handicap-stroke hole . The player will record 3 ( par ) plus 1 handicap stroke for an X-4 on hole 17. Hole 18 is a par 4 and is the number 12 handicap-stroke hole . The player will record 4 ( par ) plus 2 handicap strokes for an X-6 on hole 18.

Those @newtogolf saw inflating their scores after the match was over should beware though:

Quote:

5-2a/7. Score to Post if Match Ends in Fewer Than 18 Holes and Player Completes Round

Q: In match play, a player wins the match on the 16th hole. The player plays the remaining two holes. What score may the player post for these two holes?

A: The player should post the actual scores on the post-match holes. To post in any other manner would be at odds with the basic premise that contends that each player will try to make the best scores at every hole in every round. If the Committee believes that the player is inflating hole scores on the post-match holes, it may apply provisions of Section 8 . (See 8-4c(iv) .) (REVISED)

As a complete aside, it is also interesting that if you play a match and win (or lose) 10 & 8 and do not play out the missing holes you can only post a 9 hole score.