RANT - etiquette!

[rkim291968]

S**t happens all the time. too many times to count.  I have done it myself inadvertently.  When I do, I make sure to call fore, and then apologize.   I even call fore for my partners' shots whether they do or not.   Almost all the time, fore & apology combo work.   But that's just too complex for some. A few will purposefully hit into a front group to "send a message." I usually let that go the first time.  2nd time that happens, I will yell at them back and thing usually get better after that.   Beyond that, I will call marshal to handle the situation although I am raging inside to break every effing bone in his body and stuff him in his own golf bag.

[Lihu]

S**t happens all the time. too many times to count.  I have done it myself inadvertently.  When I do, I make sure to call fore, and then apologize.   I even call fore for my partners' shots whether they do or not.   Almost all the time, fore & apology combo work.   But that's just too complex for some.   A few will purposefully hit into a front group to "send a message."  I usually let that go the first time.  2nd time that happens, I will yell at them back and thing usually get better after that.   Beyond that, I will call marshal to handle the situation although I am raging inside to break every effing bone in his body and stuff him in his own golf bag.

I've joked about it with some of my playing partners, but that's where it stops. There are many times where it's hard to judge the distances, and if this is intermixed with joking it could really lead to a serious misunderstanding. The same day that we joked about "sending a message", I hit the power fade of my life and the ball landed in front of some members of the part we were following. They were not happy at all. No amount of apology was able to fix the situation.

On the flip side, if a party is really slow, they shouldn't "send a message" back by slowing down even more.

The issue is that etiquette is just that. If people are polite to each other it will be returned in kind. If people are not and prejudge a situation by putting their prejudgement into their actions, that's where the fireworks begin.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

S**t happens all the time. too many times to count.  I have done it myself inadvertently.  When I do, I make sure to call fore, and then apologize.   I even call fore for my partners' shots whether they do or not.   Almost all the time, fore & apology combo work.   But that's just too complex for some.   A few will purposefully hit into a front group to "send a message."  I usually let that go the first time.  2nd time that happens, I will yell at them back and thing usually get better after that.   Beyond that, I will call marshal to handle the situation although I am raging inside to break every effing bone in his body and stuff him in his own golf bag.

I've joked about it with some of my playing partners, but that's where it stops. There are many times where it's hard to judge the distances, and if this is intermixed with joking it could really lead to a serious misunderstanding. The same day that we joked about "sending a message", I hit the power fade of my life and the ball landed in front of some members of the part we were following. They were not happy at all. No amount of apology was able to fix the situation.

On the flip side, if a party is really slow, they shouldn't "send a message" back by slowing down even more.

The issue is that etiquette is just that. If people are polite to each other it will be returned in kind. If people are not and prejudge a situation by putting their prejudgement into their actions, that's where the fireworks begin.

One time, these two guys whom I got paired up with did exactly that.   The guys joked (at least I thought) about hitting a ball into the front group and actually did it.  They continue to do that until a yelling match broke out between the two groups.   I seen quite a few more incidents since then.

[WUTiger]

Gentlemen, let's review the original scenario under discussion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjsnyc

... A well dressed man (probably in his 40s, with his wife - also well dressed) apparently asked one of the guys I got paired up with if he could play through (we were in a group of 4). Though I didn't hear him, my playing partner told me that the 2some behind wanted to play through while we were walking the fairway after our tee shot. He said he told the guy that there are groups in front of us and that it wouldn't make any difference - so no, you can't play through. ...

The bolded text describes a situation in which I would complain about "pushy twosomes" trying to mess up the order of the day. Context, gentlemen.

If the golf rules on this officially changes in 2012, so be it. But, I don't think the rules were meant to allow twosomes to bully other golfers on a course with an orderly pace of play already under way. Sounds like a case of Richie Rich upset because he has to play with the common folk.

If it was a wide open course, I would have encouraged the twosome to go through.

BTW, I saw a fairly new "twosomes have no standing" sign at a course I played last year. Possibly they're not aware of the 2004 and 2012 rules advisories.

[Lihu]

tback and iacas,

Gentlemen, let's review the original scenario under discussion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjsnyc

... A well dressed man (probably in his 40s, with his wife - also well dressed) apparently asked one of the guys I got paired up with if he could play through (we were in a group of 4). Though I didn't hear him, my playing partner told me that the 2some behind wanted to play through while we were walking the fairway after our tee shot. He said he told the guy that there are groups in front of us and that it wouldn't make any difference - so no, you can't play through. ...

The bolded text describes a situation in which I would complain about "pushy twosomes" trying to mess up the order of the day. Context, gentlemen.

If the golf rules on this officially changes in 2012, so be it. But, I don't think the rules were meant to allow twosomes to bully other golfers on a course with an orderly pace of play already under way. Sounds like a case of Richie Rich upset because he has to play with the common folk.

If it was a wide open course, I would have encouraged the twosome to go through.

BTW, I saw a fairly new "twosomes have no standing" sign at a course I played last year. Possibly they're not aware of the 2004 and 2012 rules advisories.

Like in modern traffic situations, the twosome could pass up the next group and the next and then they are out of the way and the slower foursomes can enjoy the rest of their round at a leisurely pace.

Many people pass up slower groups and even play random order of holes based upon where the slow ups occur in the mornings to get a quick 2-2.5 hour round in.

I think the issue is that many people feel uncomfortable making people wait all day long, and get a little frustrated with their own games and feel "rushed". If they just let faster groups pass them up even if it is a full course, then they can continue to play at their comfortable pace. I have found that it does make a difference even if you have 4 groups in front of you to let fast players pass you up because usually they will ask the next group up and so on a so forth. I think it makes the course a nicer place for everyone.

[RickK]

Like in modern traffic situations, the twosome could pass up the next group and the next and then they are out of the way and the slower foursomes can enjoy the rest of their round at a leisurely pace. Many people pass up slower groups and even play random order of holes based upon where the slow ups occur in the mornings to get a quick 2-2.5 hour round in. I think the issue is that many people feel uncomfortable making people wait all day long, and get a little frustrated with their own games and feel "rushed". If they just let faster groups pass them up even if it is a full course, then they can continue to play at their comfortable pace. I have found that it does make a difference even if you have 4 groups in front of you to let fast players pass you up because usually they will ask the next group up and so on a so forth. I think it makes the course a nicer place for everyone.

I have been playing golf for 45 years and I have never asked a group ahead of me if I can play thru. Just not something I would ever do. I have told the group I was going to skip a couple of holes and go ahead but I would never just cut in front of someone unless there was a gap there. I am always aware of where my group stands in relation to the group ahead of us. I have no problem telling my group if we are falling behind. But sometimes it happens and we will have a gap ahead of us. If we are being pushed and we aren't catching up I will offer the group behind us to play thru but I make sure everyone in my group is aware of it. But if we are in place with the group ahead I will tell the group behind us "sorry but there is no place for you to go so if you are in a hurry you might try skipping a few holes and see if you can find an opening." I think attitude has a lot to do with causing/preventing confrontation.

[Lihu]

[quote name="Lihu" url="/t/16022/rant-etiquette/30#post_1086481"] Like in modern traffic situations, the twosome could pass up the next group and the next and then they are out of the way and the slower foursomes can enjoy the rest of their round at a leisurely pace. Many people pass up slower groups and even play random order of holes based upon where the slow ups occur in the mornings to get a quick 2-2.5 hour round in. I think the issue is that many people feel uncomfortable making people wait all day long, and get a little frustrated with their own games and feel "rushed". If they just let faster groups pass them up even if it is a full course, then they can continue to play at their comfortable pace. I have found that it does make a difference even if you have 4 groups in front of you to let fast players pass you up because usually they will ask the next group up and so on a so forth. I think it makes the course a nicer place for everyone.

I have been playing golf for 45 years and I have never asked a group ahead of me if I can play thru. Just not something I would ever do. I have told the group I was going to skip a couple of holes and go ahead but I would never just cut in front of someone unless there was a gap there. I am always aware of where my group stands in relation to the group ahead of us. I have no problem telling my group if we are falling behind. But sometimes it happens and we will have a gap ahead of us. If we are being pushed and we aren't catching up I will offer the group behind us to play thru but I make sure everyone in my group is aware of it. But if we are in place with the group ahead I will tell the group behind us "sorry but there is no place for you to go so if you are in a hurry you might try skipping a few holes and see if you can find an opening." I think attitude has a lot to do with causing/preventing confrontation.[/quote] Except for your first sentence, you basically repeated what I already stated. I didn't see any reason why you never asked any other group to let you play through? It just seems logical if there is a large gap in front. Is it impolite to do so? I would think it would take pressure off the slower players game and let them enjoy themselves at their own pace.

[RickK]

Except for your first sentence, you basically repeated what I already stated.

I didn't see any reason why you never asked any other group to let you play through? It just seems logical if there is a large gap in front. Is it impolite to do so? I would think it would take pressure off the slower players game and let them enjoy themselves at their own pace.

Not saying it is impolite at all.  I think players should be aware of where they are in relation to the group ahead of them.  I have always figured that the guys should offer to let me or my group play thru instead of me having to ask them if there is really an open hole or more ahead of them.  And, in my part of the world, most do offer to let you play thru.  Not all will.  If there seems to be a big gap, as I said I will skip a hole or two...if I really am in a hurry.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/16022/rant-etiquette/36#post_1086507"] Except for your first sentence, you basically repeated what I already stated. I didn't see any reason why you never asked any other group to let you play through? It just seems logical if there is a large gap in front. Is it impolite to do so? I would think it would take pressure off the slower players game and let them enjoy themselves at their own pace.[/QUOTE] Not saying it is impolite at all.  I think players should be aware of where they are in relation to the group ahead of them.  I have always figured that the guys should offer to let me or my group play thru instead of me having to ask them if there is really an open hole or more ahead of them.  And, in my part of the world, most do offer to let you play thru.  Not all will.  If there seems to be a big gap, as I said I will skip a hole or two...if I really am in a hurry.

Yeah, I suppose very few people actually let others play through. Guess there might be some stigma associated with being considered "slow' enough to let people play through.

[rebelrob]

I had a similar thing where there was 2 behind me and 2 other guys. There was at least 2 4-balls in front of us and probably a couple of pairs, so we saw no real need in playing through the 4-some in front of us as we caught them up to the point where we had to wait for most shot by about the 9th. As were standing about 50yds from a green, this ball bounces about 15ft to the right of me, no 'fore!', nothing, so I turn around and see these 2 pricks stood no more the 150yds from us, one with a club in his hand still. I shout 'OI!' holding my hands out either side of me to indicate a 'what are you doing?' sort of thing and I don't even get a hand raise in acknowledgement for him being a absolute cock. Waiting on the next tee, we see them reach the green, so i walk over to them and say 'Could you not hit into us, please?' and I don't even get a sorry, just a vague look and then he carries on looking at his line. I could have easily walked onto their green and picked up his ball and threw it into the woods to make a point, but I was trying to refrain myself from getting wound up.

I did say to myself if they do it again I'm gonna just be hitting it straight back to them. An error of judgement is one thing, but there's no need for rudeness. I once hit near a couple of people, admittedly they were about 260-70 yards away, but I had hit it so clean it stopped short of them by about 10 yards. I yelled fore as soon as i realised it could reach them, and immediately put my hand up when they turned around. Everyone makes mistakes after all...

[turtleback]

The bolded text describes a situation in which I would complain about "pushy twosomes" trying to mess up the order of the day. Context, gentlemen.

If the golf rules on this officially changes in 2012, so be it. But, I don't think the rules were meant to allow twosomes to bully other golfers on a course with an orderly pace of play already under way. Sounds like a case of Richie Rich upset because he has to play with the common folk.

If it was a wide open course, I would have encouraged the twosome to go through.

BTW, I saw a fairly new "twosomes have no standing" sign at a course I played last year. Possibly they're not aware of the 2004 and 2012 rules advisories.

What the hell are you talking about?  You are acting as if we said that a two-some has the right of way.  NO group has the right of way because of its size.  Is is Pace of Play that counts.  If there is no gap in front of you then that is it.  The 2-some has no special right to play through.  But if there is a gap they do.  It is literally THAT SIMPLE!

As far as sign you see on the course, that also has nothing to do with it.  We have seen example after example talked about on this very forum of people running golf courses who either know little or care little about the actual rules.  Marking hazards incorrectly, adopting unauthorized local "rules" etc.

The only "bullying" I've seen is 4-somes with big gaps in front of them refusing to let faster groups OF ANY SIZE play through, usually citing the same outdated rule you tried to use.  I could be snide and make some rude comment about what kind of case it sounds like, the way you did, but I'll refrain.

[Spitfisher]

Yeah, I suppose very few people actually let others play through. Guess there might be some stigma associated with being considered "slow' enough to let people play through.

God I hope not, slow play is killing the game.

but then again you can't teach stupid.

[Gboroman]

1) I've never asked to play through.  I've only played through when invited to do so.

2) If I'm holding up a group, I will invite them to play through if there is a hole open in front of me.  If it's slow in front of me, I'll say, "You're welcome to play through, if you want, but there's no where to go."

3) If I'm playing with a slow fellow competitor, I'll politely remind him that we should pick up the pace if we are holding someone up.  And, I'll do things like ask to play ready golf, suggest he drop a ball if he spends much time looking for his lost ball, walk at a faster pace, etc

4) The senior "speed golfers" annoy me as much or more than slow golfers.  They tee off from the golds, don't take practice swings, all hit at the same time, etc.  Gee whizz, old man, why don't you slow down, take the time to line up your putt and enjoy your round of golf?  Your nap can wait.

[iacas]

The bolded text describes a situation in which I would complain about "pushy twosomes" trying to mess up the order of the day. Context, gentlemen.

If the golf rules on this officially changes in 2012, so be it. But, I don't think the rules were meant to allow twosomes to bully other golfers on a course with an orderly pace of play already under way. Sounds like a case of Richie Rich upset because he has to play with the common folk.

If it was a wide open course, I would have encouraged the twosome to go through.

BTW, I saw a fairly new "twosomes have no standing" sign at a course I played last year. Possibly they're not aware of the 2004 and 2012 rules advisories.

2012? Huh?

I was simply responding to your incorrect statement that a single has no standing. That's outdated by a decade or so, and I made no comment about whether you should allow any group (1-4 players) to play through if there's "nowhere for them to go."

[Fourputt]

1) I've never asked to play through.  I've only played through when invited to do so.

2) If I'm holding up a group, I will invite them to play through if there is a hole open in front of me.  If it's slow in front of me, I'll say, "You're welcome to play through, if you want, but there's no where to go."

3) If I'm playing with a slow fellow competitor, I'll politely remind him that we should pick up the pace if we are holding someone up.  And, I'll do things like ask to play ready golf, suggest he drop a ball if he spends much time looking for his lost ball, walk at a faster pace, etc

4) The senior "speed golfers" annoy me as much or more than slow golfers.  They tee off from the golds, don't take practice swings, all hit at the same time, etc.  Gee whizz, old man, why don't you slow down, take the time to line up your putt and enjoy your round of golf?  Your nap can wait.

You might try cutting back on the "old man" crap.  And you might consider learning how to play efficiently from those "experienced" players.  I don't play from the forward tees (yet), and I've played a couple of courses where the gold tees are the tips, so you might consider what you are going to say before you start typing.

I'm 68, but I've been playing ready golf for more than 25 years, long before I was your "old man".  Yes I will sometimes play at very nearly the same time as one of my companions, as long as neither of us is in a position to bother the other.  Not a thing wrong with that - I've been doing that for more than 25 years too.  It certainly doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my round.  I daresay that I don't enjoy it any less than you do, but when I finish I still have time left in the day for other pursuits (or maybe another 18 holes ).

Playing efficiently does not mean that one isn't enjoying one's round, any more than playing by the rules negates the possibility of having fun.  I try to do both, and I still have a whopping good time when I play.  Try it some time.

[Gboroman]

You might try cutting back on the "old man" crap.  And you might consider learning how to play efficiently from those "experienced" players.  I don't play from the forward tees (yet), and I've played a couple of courses where the gold tees are the tips, so you might consider what you are going to say before you start typing.

I'm 68, but I've been playing ready golf for more than 25 years, long before I was your "old man".  Yes I will sometimes play at very nearly the same time as one of my companions, as long as neither of us is in a position to bother the other.  Not a thing wrong with that - I've been doing that for more than 25 years too.  It certainly doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my round.  I daresay that I don't enjoy it any less than you do, but when I finish I still have time left in the day for other pursuits (or maybe another 18 holes  ).

Playing efficiently does not mean that one isn't enjoying one's round, any more than playing by the rules negates the possibility of having fun.  I try to do both, and I still have a whopping good time when I play.  Try it some time.

I'm sorry.  I apologize.  I should've said the SENIOR tees.

[rkim291968]

1) I've never asked to play through.  I've only played through when invited to do so.

2) If I'm holding up a group, I will invite them to play through if there is a hole open in front of me.  If it's slow in front of me, I'll say, "You're welcome to play through, if you want, but there's no where to go."

3) If I'm playing with a slow fellow competitor, I'll politely remind him that we should pick up the pace if we are holding someone up.  And, I'll do things like ask to play ready golf, suggest he drop a ball if he spends much time looking for his lost ball, walk at a faster pace, etc

4) The senior "speed golfers" annoy me as much or more than slow golfers.  They tee off from the golds, don't take practice swings, all hit at the same time, etc.  Gee whizz, old man, why don't you slow down, take the time to line up your putt and enjoy your round of golf?  Your nap can wait.

LOL.  This reminds me of one elderly gentleman (it could have been Fourputt ) I've seen in par 3 exec course I frequented.  He is handicapped (one leg shorter than the other), rides a cart, plays by himself, zips by everyone (skips a hole if someone slower is in front), and gets done with 9 hole in about 30 - 40 minutes.   He is playing early in the morning on weekdays, and I suspect he is retired.  But gee whizz, he was in a hurry as if the sole purpose of playing golf is to play fast.

[flopster]

LOL.  This reminds me of one elderly gentleman (it could have been Fourputt ) I've seen in par 3 exec course I frequented.  He is handicapped (one leg shorter than the other), rides a cart, plays by himself, zips by everyone (skips a hole if someone slower is in front), and gets done with 9 hole in about 30 - 40 minutes.   He is playing early in the morning on weekdays, and I suspect he is retired.  But gee whizz, he was in a hurry as if the sole purpose of playing golf is to play fast.

As long as he plays this way by himself and not expect anyone he gets grouped with to play at his fast pace then no problem, I have been grouped with guys like that on occasion and the best way to handle it is just ignore the pace that he tries to push onto you and play your game at an efficient pace that you can maintain your focus, golf is not a track meet and honestly I have played some of my best rounds when I don't have to wait on anyone and can just focus on only the shot in front of me but how often is that the case? I think it's just as bad etiquette to push someone during a round as it is holding up pace of play, there is definitely a happy medium somewhere that everyone can live by.