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Having Trouble Gettings Hands to Roll Through Impact

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23 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

There is nothing "automatic" about the release! I can very well remember my early days in the game when I used to "hang onto it" like crazy, and slice it across 2 fairways! There seems to be a "fear" in letting the clubhead go. Like you might go left or something. Is our fear of the left that much more than the right? 

It better be automatic, because I’ve never intentionally “released” anything other than a fish that’s too small in my life!   ;-)

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Sooo much negativity on this web site. Alot of you seem like assholes. Good grief. Anyways...

If you watch pros face on in slow mo it does appear to me that they roll the right hand over the left just after impact.

 

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10 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

Sooo much negativity on this web site. Alot of you seem like assholes. Good grief. Anyways...

If you watch pros face on in slow mo it does appear to me that they roll the right hand over the left just after impact.

 

Not sure where you got that perception. But there’s a difference between what you see happening and what they are doing. That ‘roll’ is a byproduct of a proper release. More often than not when a player consciously tries to achieve that roll it leads to a poor swing.

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6 hours ago, Bobby2Swings said:

Sooo much negativity on this web site. Alot of you seem like assholes. Good grief. Anyways...

If saying "oh, I don't like that advice, here's what I think is better" is "negativity" and makes people seem like assholes because they're trying to help… I guess many of us here are guilty as charged. What jerks we are trying to help others.

6 hours ago, Bobby2Swings said:

If you watch pros face on in slow mo it does appear to me that they roll the right hand over the left just after impact.

We have other topics for this, and yes, their hands do roll over a bit, but it's a passive "release" and not a result of the way amateurs tend to do it, especially a 10-handicap who says he's trying to get the toe up at waist high on the follow-through.

And, there are plenty of PGA Tour pros who don't "release" the club in this way, many of which hit nice draws. 

Anyway, it's not like this topic hasn't been discussed a bunch already in the 15 years this site's been around, or the nine or so years I've been an instructor. Including:

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On 8/30/2019 at 4:27 PM, mvmac said:

To be honest, really, really bad advice. A lot of players actually have dual internal shoulder rotation at impact.

How many of these guys are rolling the right forearm over the left?

Where are their left elbows pointing?

Screen Shot 2019-08-30 at 1.21.20 PM.png3.jpg2.jpg1.jpg

Truth to power, brother. Troof.

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How you communicate can be just as important as what you communicate. The responses seem to want to shut down the conversation instead of exploring it further. If he has success with an explicit roll of the wrists/forearms I think it is worth discussing further instead of cherry picking a set of pictures that fit a different narrative or saying ""terrible advice". I could go gather some pictures of 5 pros with right wrist over left just after impact and say... "see, you've got to roll your wrists like the pros, saying otherwise is terrible advice". I think conversation is constructive.

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24 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

How you communicate can be just as important as what you communicate. The responses seem to want to shut down the conversation instead of exploring it further. If he has success with an explicit roll of the wrists/forearms I think it is worth discussing further instead of cherry picking a set of pictures that fit a different narrative or saying ""terrible advice". I could go gather some pictures of 5 pros with right wrist over left just after impact and say... "see, you've got to roll your wrists like the pros, saying otherwise is terrible advice". I think conversation is constructive.

Again...it’s not good advice to try and get someone to purposefully roll their wrists. The roll you’ve seen is a byproduct of the swing occurring before that happens. I can make a terrible swing ( easily of course) and still have the rolled look after impact.

Edited by Vinsk

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On 8/27/2019 at 10:15 PM, Mudcatwilly said:

Fix#2: Release the club. Just before impact, the right forearm rolls over the left. This squares the face and also adds distance. Distance because you reduce or eliminate side spin and it creates the whip action, speeding the club up.

 

15 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

How you communicate can be just as important as what you communicate. The responses seem to want to shut down the conversation instead of exploring it further. If he has success with an explicit roll of the wrists/forearms I think it is worth discussing further instead of cherry picking a set of pictures that fit a different narrative or saying ""terrible advice". I could go gather some pictures of 5 pros with right wrist over left just after impact and say... "see, you've got to roll your wrists like the pros, saying otherwise is terrible advice". I think conversation is constructive.

Conversation can be constructive, I agree.  Lets go back to the recent post that re-started this old thread.  @Mudcatwilly recommends rolling the trail forearm over the lead just before impact.  That is the specific advice that is being criticized heavily.  I know you can find photos of good players with the right arm "rolling over" the left after impact, but I'd be amazed if you can find pictures of this happening just before impact.

In my view, any conscious manipulation of the club right around impact is a problem, its nearly impossible to time a motion like that consistently.  The better way is to build a swing in which the clubface squares up as a by-product of the rest of the motion, rather than as a result of conscious manipulation.

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24 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

How you communicate can be just as important as what you communicate.

This is true but remember this is writing. You can’t always be sure of the tone or intent based on written words. 

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53 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Conversation can be constructive, I agree.  Lets go back to the recent post that re-started this old thread.  @Mudcatwilly recommends rolling the trail forearm over the lead just before impact.  That is the specific advice that is being criticized heavily.  I know you can find photos of good players with the right arm "rolling over" the left after impact, but I'd be amazed if you can find pictures of this happening just before impact.

In my view, any conscious manipulation of the club right around impact is a problem, its nearly impossible to time a motion like that consistently.  The better way is to build a swing in which the clubface squares up as a by-product of the rest of the motion, rather than as a result of conscious manipulation.

Fair enough. I just wonder if people can have success with both methods. My interpretation of his recommendation was that he only starts the rolling before impact.

I've always struggled with an open club face at impact. The only thing that has been successful in taming my slice and push has been training myself to let the face rotate from open (prior to impact) to closed (after impact) and actually having the feeling that my right arm moves on top of my left through to the finish. I would call it a "gradual rolling of the forearms". The feeling was certainly explicit manipulation at first, less so now. I don't want other folks to struggle like I have and be turned away from advice that could potentially help them, even if many think its bad advice. I think it is about trying different things and seeing what feelings works for us as individuals to get better results.
 

1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

This is true but remember this is writing. You can’t always be sure of the tone or intent based on written words. 

Then we should all do a better job of expressing our tone, I try my best to.

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27 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

Fair enough. I just wonder if people can have success with both methods. My interpretation of his recommendation was that he only starts the rolling before impact.

I've always struggled with an open club face at impact. The only thing that has been successful in taming my slice and push has been training myself to let the face rotate from open (prior to impact) to closed (after impact) and actually having the feeling that my right arm moves on top of my left through to the finish. I would call it a "gradual rolling of the forearms". The feeling was certainly explicit manipulation at first, less so now. I don't want other folks to struggle like I have and be turned away from advice that could potentially help them, even if many think its bad advice. I think it is about trying different things and seeing what feelings works for us as individuals to get better results.
 

Then we should all do a better job of expressing our tone, I try my best to.

@Bobby2Swings Be honest, did you read the post that @iacas put the link to? Your questions are all discussed there. Don’t take this as any tone please. It’s just nice to not have to repeat what’s already been discussed.

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On 8/30/2019 at 12:26 PM, Mudcatwilly said:

Some of the guys had me so worried that I hit the range this morning to break things down. Turns out I was kinda flipping at the ball. Now it was working for awhile, but I found some inconsistency, hitting too many shots a tiny bit fat. Then I took my wrists out of the downswing (hope I'm describing it right) and just focused on turning through the ball. That really did the trick. I was getting way more power and flushing the 5 iron, which is a club I have struggled with. It seems that turning through the ball squares up the face and gets my weight shift to sync up nicely. Thanks for the tips.

 

37 minutes ago, Bobby2Swings said:

Fair enough. I just wonder if people can have success with both methods. My interpretation of his recommendation was that he only starts the rolling before impact.

I've always struggled with an open club face at impact. The only thing that has been successful in taming my slice and push has been training myself to let the face rotate from open (prior to impact) to closed (after impact) and actually having the feeling that my right arm moves on top of my left through to the finish. I would call it a "gradual rolling of the forearms". The feeling was certainly explicit manipulation at first, less so now. I don't want other folks to struggle like I have and be turned away from advice that could potentially help them, even if many think its bad advice. I think it is about trying different things and seeing what feelings works for us as individuals to get better results.

What is interesting is that @Mudcatwilly listened to the advice he got here, and found that he accomplished the "squaring of the club" by concentrating on something completely different, actively turning his body through the downswing.  When he was focused on the active release, he was seeing inconsistency, which is what a number of guys have predicted.  

This kind of thing is pretty typical, I think, when a player attempts to fix his own swing.  Many of us, myself included, focus on a "issue" that is a symptom rather than a cause.  The best long-term solution isn't to attack the symptom itself ("release the club") but to determine and correct the underlying cause (proper rotation).

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4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

@Bobby2Swings Be honest, did you read the post that @iacas put the link to? Your questions are all discussed there. Don’t take this as any tone please. It’s just nice to not have to repeat what’s already been discussed.

No, I honestly hadn't until now. However, I stand by what I've said. While I agree about when the forearms actually roll over, after impact, that post or the repeated discussion points on this thread don't help people like myself that have had success with the feeling of the "gradual rolling of the forearms through impact". Its about a feeling and the results that the feeling produce.

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3 hours ago, Bobby2Swings said:

How you communicate can be just as important as what you communicate.

I'm generally not terribly interested in this, because I've learned over the years that people will read whatever tone they want into things, despite nearly every effort being made to not have any negative tone at all.

This feeling of "negative tone" or "how" is increased (by the reader of the comments) when:

  • the commentary uses a larger vocabulary.
  • the commentary disagrees with the reader.
  • the commentary (or commentator) has a confidence about it.

Some posts hit the trifecta.

I'm interested in the actual stuff being talked about, NOT about how various people can mis-read or insert their own tone, because, whether you like it or not, there's NO WAY to add tone to plain old text. Tone is almost entirely the reader's invention.

And, this is the last we'll talk about "tone" or "how" or any of that here, because it's off topic and does nothing to help anyone actually get better at playing golf.

2 hours ago, Bobby2Swings said:

I've always struggled with an open club face at impact. The only thing that has been successful in taming my slice and push has been training myself to let the face rotate from open (prior to impact) to closed (after impact) and actually having the feeling that my right arm moves on top of my left through to the finish. I would call it a "gradual rolling of the forearms".

Here's the thing… or things:

  • You'd probably be better off with some palmar flexion, and a different/improved grip.
  • Your definition of "successful" likely isn't at a high level. Your own "Member Swing" topic indicates you've been playing for a little over a year. Your version of "success" is quite different than the success a better player is looking to achieve.

In other words, actively trying to roll the wrists is often a "band-aid" type thing for higher handicappers.

I prefer that they learn the "better" and "longer-lasting" sort of way to square the face.

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In my last post I did mention that when I first took up the game, I "held onto" the club like grim death! There was nothing "natural" about the release for me, it was something I had to learn to do, something I had to try to do. It finally started to happen when golf really grabbed me hard, and I found myself in a situation where I could practice nearly every day. I was also reading instructional articles in Golf Digest back when it was actually a worthwhile read! This would be late 60's early 70's. 

It happened when I became able to hit a ball with a right to left curve. I'm right handed. At first, I'd occasionally let it go too early and hit a quacker off the planet! But eventually, I was able to dial it back and wound up with a nice baby draw ball flight. 

I think many confuse a "flip" with a release. A flip is a disaster. A proper release is a thing of joy! It's something that I'm actually re-learning this year.HI is down to 13.1 from 14.4 and I'm hitting the ball farther than I have in a while. 

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On 9/17/2008 at 5:45 PM, slinkee said:

I'm having a lot of trouble getting my hands to roll over through impact. What's happening is I'm letting my right hand stay underneath the club, despite starting out with a fairly neutral grip (right hand goes on top of the club a little more to aid in the release of the club head) and it leaves the face open. I've been doing the waist high drills where I take the club back making sure the toe is up, and then follow through the same distance doing the same thing but I just can't seem to make this work.

I know you cannot consciously think about it in the down swing so is there anything else I can do to help me let the club release on it's own?

I think you’re over complicating your swing.

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On 9/17/2008 at 8:45 PM, slinkee said:

I'm having a lot of trouble getting my hands to roll over through impact. What's happening is I'm letting my right hand stay underneath the club, despite starting out with a fairly neutral grip (right hand goes on top of the club a little more to aid in the release of the club head) and it leaves the face open. I've been doing the waist high drills where I take the club back making sure the toe is up, and then follow through the same distance doing the same thing but I just can't seem to make this work.

I know you cannot consciously think about it in the down swing so is there anything else I can do to help me let the club release on it's own?

Why not try hitting balls with only your trail (right) arm. You sure as hell won’t hit the ball well if you keep your trail hand underneath the club. It will force you keep your trail hand on top and bent back to make a solid strike. 

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