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Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?


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Greatest Golfer (GOAT)  

217 members have voted

  1. 1. Tiger or Jack: Who's the greatest golfer?

    • Tiger Woods is the man
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    • Jack Nicklaus is my favorite
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I erred including the Players. But here we go with the gobbledy gook, bringing Hagen into a Jack tiger thing. you guys go in circles with what if, what about, and suddenly we end up with Jack beating club pros in the 70's, and Tiger demolishing hordes of physical freaks of nature in the 90-early 2000's. Tiger was great in his day. Jack was great in his. Hogan in his. Hagen in his. All this GOAT nonsense is just a bunch of fans talking crap to each other about something that can never be answered.  Despite the "throw as much s**t on the wall, hope some sticks" stuff going on here..

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@GrandStranded, you’ll note if you were capable of recognizing an argument, that many who see Tiger as the GOAT didn’t give any weight to the points system provided.

I rejected it immediately. Even though it’s more nuanced than “18 > 14.”

And you’re wrong. Some Jack supporters posted. @Hoganman1 for one.

As for anything else said, your silence is seen as an inability to refute what’s said.

Disagree? Then make an argument. Instead all we get is bluster over a single post (the points system one person conjured) and your attempt to dismiss the entire conversation because of that one post. We see through it. We see you completely failing to make an argument.

The fields when Jack played were often 1/3 club pros. He helped create the PGA Tour as separate from the PGA. They’re still to this day linked, though, and the separation back then was neither immediate nor complete.

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8 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

???? Read todays posts in this thread... There isn't any disagreement at all. It's to the point now where nobody except the pro Tiger guys even want to bother posting. In the last 2-3 days myself and one other tried to argue pro Jack. Not worth it. Now you're making up lists placing value on Tiger's wins in tournaments that weren't even around when Jack played, like the Players, WGC events, and best of all, Jack's own Memorial tournament! You can't make this s**t up! LOL!! Surprised you guys don't value Tigers silly season charity tournament as a major. LOL Peace Out, guys. No need for anymore "disagreeing" with me. I'll just read and laugh. 

Dog, listen --- most of the people in this thread think TIger is better than Jack. Welcome to public discourse, where sometimes there is a critical consensus on a specific idea, and you're left out. (Like my opinion that the majors are more arbitrary in nature than people like to admit!) Nobody is going to pour boiling oil on you for disagreeing about Tiger and Jack. Nobody thinks about you or your opinions that much, if at all. You are upset because your arguments don't hold weight here, and frankly, the reason they don't hold weight is because you've provided weaker supporting evidence for Jack than others have for Tiger. 

The point about the WGCs is simple; it's the best fields in the world, comprised of only the best players, and therefore give Tiger some extra ammo. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because, as you correctly pointed out, the WGCs weren't around when Jack was playing. But that doesn't mean that the point doesn't stand; a Bridgestone Invitational carries more weight than, say, Seattle Open Invitational, because of strength of field. 

Nobody is coming at you, GS. Seriously. We're all having a conversation. 

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1 hour ago, jbishop15 said:

frankly, the reason they don't hold weight is because you've provided weaker supporting evidence for Jack than others have for Tiger.

I'd go further than that: he's provided weaker support for Jack than others have for Jack.

1 hour ago, jbishop15 said:

The point about the WGCs is simple; it's the best fields in the world, comprised of only the best players, and therefore give Tiger some extra ammo. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because, as you correctly pointed out, the WGCs weren't around when Jack was playing. But that doesn't mean that the point doesn't stand; a Bridgestone Invitational carries more weight than, say, Seattle Open Invitational, because of strength of field.

A fair point, and one that I would imagine some Tiger Woods supporters have weighed at least a little bit.

I don't necessarily assign "points" to various wins or whatever, but in considering the strength and depth of field, that's essentially what I'm doing, and what others are doing. In weighting 14 majors won between 1997 and 2008 over 18 from 1962 to 1986, I'm basically doing that. Then the other stuff, like 79 vs. 72, etc. continue to pile on one side or the other (almost exclusively Tiger's side, because seriously, what else is there on Jack's side? I don't care, myself, about second place finishes).

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15 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

???? Read todays posts in this thread... There isn't any disagreement at all. It's to the point now where nobody except the pro Tiger guys even want to bother posting. In the last 2-3 days myself and one other tried to argue pro Jack. Not worth it. Now you're making up lists placing value on Tiger's wins in tournaments that weren't even around when Jack played, like the Players, WGC events, and best of all, Jack's own Memorial tournament! You can't make this s**t up! LOL!! Surprised you guys don't value Tigers silly season charity tournament as a major. LOL Peace Out, guys. No need for anymore "disagreeing" with me. I'll just read and laugh. 

Huh?  I distinctly disagreed that the notion of a points system has much, if any, value in the J v T debate or any GOAT debate.  When you say there wasn't any disagreement it sounds more like 'no one agreed with me'.    

And with your mocking of the FACT that much of Jack's competition consisted of club pros you are not only displaying your own ignorance* you are dismissing first hand experience just posted about in the other thread.  Many of us already knew this, but apparently you didn't.  If someone refuses to acknowledge and learn when facts and experience are put before them, then that is a choice.

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/96838-tournament-golf-history-offshoot-of-tigerjack-goat-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=1367927

* not meant as a slam.  Mark Twain famously said we are all ignorant - just about different things.

 

Edited by turtleback

But then again, what the hell do I know?

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15 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Surprised you guys don't value Tigers silly season charity tournament as a major.

At least that one is not counted as a Tour win. Jack has a number of official Tour wins that are a total joke. Read about it here:

1976 with 20 players:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_World_Series_of_Golf

1970 and 1971 team event with small field:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Team_Championship

Edited by Dr. Manhattan
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2 hours ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

At least that one is not counted as a Tour win. Jack has a number of official Tour wins that are a total joke. Read about it here:

1976 with 20 players:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_World_Series_of_Golf

Note also that Jack received $100,000 in official money for beating 19 other players in the NEC, in a year when Johnny Miller received just $13,500 in unofficial money for winning the British Open.  Jack had only one other win that year, but the windfall from the 20-man NEC gave him the money title over Miller and two other players who all won three events that year, which in turn put Jack over the top for an IMO undeserved Player of the Year award.

I wonder how many heads would explode if Tiger had an otherwise unremarkable year, but won the money title and POY because the Hero Challenge paid 10 million in official money?

Or if the Hero Challenge was considered an official event, giving Tiger five more wins to eclipse Sam Snead's record for total victories?

Edited by brocks
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3 hours ago, brocks said:

Note also that Jack received $100,000 in official money for beating 19 other players in the NEC, in a year when Johnny Miller received just $13,500 in unofficial money for winning the British Open.  Jack had only one other win that year, but the windfall from the 20-man NEC gave him the money title over Miller and two other players who all won three events that year, which in turn put Jack over the top for an IMO undeserved Player of the Year award.

I wonder how many heads would explode if Tiger had an otherwise unremarkable year, but won the money title and POY because the Hero Challenge paid 10 million in official money?

Or if the Hero Challenge was considered an official event, giving Tiger five more wins to eclipse Sam Snead's record for total victories?

I tracked the details of the most PGA wins reality a few years ago and posted it in 2012.  Tigers numbers need updating to 79 but I managed to track Jack and Sam down.

And since Jack's metric for being the best, when he turned pro, was to win the most events on tour, on an apples to apples to apples comparison Tiger has that metric and therefore is the GOAT.  

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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2 hours ago, brocks said:

Note also that Jack received $100,000 in official money for beating 19 other players in the NEC, in a year when Johnny Miller received just $13,500 in unofficial money for winning the British Open.  Jack had only one other win that year, but the windfall from the 20-man NEC gave him the money title over Miller and two other players who all won three events that year, which in turn put Jack over the top for an IMO undeserved Player of the Year award.

I wonder how many heads would explode if Tiger had an otherwise unremarkable year, but won the money title and POY because the Hero Challenge paid 10 million in official money?

Or if the Hero Challenge was considered an official event, giving Tiger five more wins to eclipse Sam Snead's record for total victories?

 

To be fair, I found an article by Jenkins that discussed the qualification factors for the World Series event. Kind of sounds similar to the Tour Championship.

But a field of 30 (Tour Champ) is 50% more than a field of 20 (World Series). And at least the FedEx playoff series starts with way over 100 before they get down to 30 in Week #4. 

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27 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

But a field of 30 (Tour Champ) is 50% more than a field of 20 (World Series). And at least the FedEx playoff series starts with way over 100 before they get down to 30 in Week #4.

I think a case can be made that the Northern Trust, AKA the first FedEx playoff event, has no worse than the fifth strongest field in golf --- behind the PGA, US and British Opens, and Players, and ahead of the Masters and WGCs. 

Players get into the majors, WGCs, Players, etc. based on their world ranking (which goes back two years), wins in big events over the last five years, money list from last year, etc.  But a player's form can change drastically in a year, let alone five years -- just ask Rory or Jordan. 

The FedEx playoffs take the top players on the PGA tour from THIS year.  To get in, you either won, or played well consistently, in the very recent past.  Even using the world ranking points, it is statistically as strong as the WGCs, which means that in reality it is much stronger, since it has some 50 more players in the field than a WGC (the world rankings vastly overrate small field events). 

The only question is whether the absence of the handful of really good international players who don't play on the PGA tour makes it weaker than the majors.  It's very hard to know, because the majors (except the Masters) have larger fields, but they all (including the Masters) have amateurs, seniors, club pros, and affirmative action players in the field who have no chance to win.  And it would take a lot of work to separate out the players with high world rankings who are having a bad year.  But in the FedEx, there are no amateurs, no legacy champs, no club pros, no exemptions, no special invitations, and nobody having a bad year.

One thing I'm very confident about, though, is it would blow away the field strength of any major played before 1975.

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Here is the Jenkins article about 1976 World Series of Golf. 

https://www.si.com/vault/1976/09/13/619308/jack-hits-another-jackpot

"The only other question last week was what had Nicklaus won? As the week began, no one around Firestone knew exactly what to think of this "new" World Series. With only 20 players in the field—good as they were—the tournament had the atmosphere of an exhibition, and the sparse crowds on Thursday and Friday contributed to this feeling. The old World Series was certainly an exhibition of sorts, a weekend affair of only 36 holes, limited to four competitors—the winners of the year's major championships—and it generally wound up being televised against several dozen college and pro football games. First place was worth $50,000 and wasn't included in official earnings. In short, it was a dog."

"Commissioner Deane Beman's grand plan was to add a snappy season-ender to the PGA tour, not a fifth, sixth or eighth major championship, as he kept putting it, but a special event that would—ahem—"transcend" the Masters and the U.S. Open and the British Open and the National PGA. He got Firestone to host it and help bankroll it, along with the PGA of America, which is that society of club pros who won't give you a discount on your new Hogan irons."

"Beman labored over a format that would assure the best field possible. Guys qualified by winning one of the four major championships or by winning more than once on the regular tour or by accumulating enough points in a series of events falling into categories christened by Beman as the Winter, Spring and Summer Tours. As far as the World Series was concerned, the 1976 tour ended two weeks ago, and the 1977 Winter Tour begins this week in Pinehurst. Except for one thing. Official money earnings for 1976 continue through the calendar year. Clear? Certainly. The golf tour was either over or not over in Akron."

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

Here is the Jenkins article about 1976 World Series of Golf. 

Thanks for the article.  Jenkins was arguably the most influential golf writer of that time, and his cheerleading for Jack went a long way toward public acceptance of Jack's nonsense about majors being the "only fair way" to determine the GOAT.

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1 minute ago, brocks said:

Thanks for the article.  Jenkins was arguably the most influential golf writer of that time, and his cheerleading for Jack went a long way toward public acceptance of Jack's nonsense about majors being the "only fair way" to determine the GOAT.

 

I thought Jenkins still favors Hogan over Jack? 

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

I thought Jenkins still favors Hogan over Jack? 

Not unless he changed his mind when I wasn't looking.  Here's an article from 1973 I cited in a post I wrote several years ago, and which Turtleback quoted a few days ago, about how Jack's criteria for GOAT changed over the years.  The link in that post no longer works, but this one does:

https://www.si.com/vault/1973/08/20/615242/jack-goes-one-up-on-a-legend

"These are the words Jack Nicklaus privately left to history: "Book the hunt." Put them in there with all those giant steps for mankind and praise the Lord and pass the song charts and the Gettysburg recital and all that stuff. All those memorable sayings that squirm their way into we the people of the country clubs, in order to form a more perfect player. Jack got old No. 14 last week at Canterbury and officially became the greatest golfer who ever lived or died, and now we have to deal with it in terms of history. "

Yup, forget Hogan or Jones, Jack is up there with Abe Lincoln.

 

Edited by brocks
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Just read Jenkins' article about the 1986 Masters. He was accusing the Seve/Faldo/Norman generation of the same stuff we see people accuse Tiger's generation of. Also interesting how he constantly says Jack had 20 majors. Did this miraculously change when Tiger got to 3 U.S. Amateurs? Hilarious. 

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I am interested in the depth of field argument. Jack beat guys like Player (9 majors), Palmer (7), Watson (8), Faldo (6), Trevino (6), Thomson (5) and Ballesteros (5). Woods beats Mickelson (5), Els (4), and Singh (3). Go figure.

Also in the 15 years after each won their first major Woods wins 14 with 21 top 10s and Nicklaus has 14 wins with 28 top tens against the above .

QED.

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19 minutes ago, Chanceman said:

I am interested in the depth of field argument. Jack beat guys like Player (9 majors), Palmer (7), Watson (8), Faldo (6), Trevino (6), Thomson (5) and Ballesteros (5). Woods beats Mickelson (5), Els (4), and Singh (3). Go figure.

Also in the 15 years after each won their first major Woods wins 14 with 21 top 10s and Nicklaus has 14 wins with 28 top tens against the above .

QED.

You could make the argument that more major winners with multiple wins is an example of a weaker field. That Player, Palmer, Watson etc. won multiple majors because the fields weren't strong enough to beat them. In Tiger's era you got more players, better players, better technology, all of which can be interpreted as his competition being stronger, thus leading to fewer multiple major winners.

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1 hour ago, Chanceman said:

I am interested in the depth of field argument. Jack beat guys like Player (9 majors), Palmer (7), Watson (8), Faldo (6), Trevino (6), Thomson (5) and Ballesteros (5).

Exactly what you’d expect to see with weaker fields.

If you were actually interested in reading about it, there are hundreds of posts and even one dedicated topic that you can read.

Having read those would have prevented you from making that post above.

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