The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Kujan]

I think the weight thing has been debunked ... the S&T; model, Grant Waite, has a large majority of his weight in the back foot at the top of the backswing... The S&T; guys don't want to admit it ... they know it, just haven't said much about it.

Then I really wish Bennett and Plummer would publish their current understanding in a revised edition of the book. [quote name="ghalfaire" url="/t/30537/the-stack-and-tilt-golf-swing/1728#post_1182362"]I am not sure there is any such thing as a "conventional swing" and if you tried to describe one you would get a lot of conversation with golfers of differing opinions.  As to loss of distance with S&T;, that has not been  my personal experience.  Maybe some at first but it would seem that any loss in club head speed has been more than made up for in efficiency of finding the sweet spot at contact.  In any case golf is about how many, not how far.  I have noted that with longer clubs, in particular the driver, you need some different swing thoughts to keep it in play.   But for many that is true regardless of the swing they think they are using. [/quote] The S&T; pattern does seem to work magic with irons.

[Phil McGleno]

Then I really wish Bennett and Plummer would publish their current understanding in a revised edition of the book.

It is the same as it was in 2007.-They have not changed anything. Only thing that has changed is that they do not teach anyone anymore.

[Mr. Desmond]

Then I really wish Bennett and Plummer would publish their current understanding in a revised edition of the book.

The S&T; pattern does seem to work magic with irons.

Driver:

Weight shift to back foot ala Grant Waite at 9 minute mark:

[Kujan]

Driver: Hitting 1-2 degrees down on the ball with the driver may work for some players but not for me. Weight shift to back foot ala Grant Waite at 9 minute mark:

To me it looks like his head is favoring the front leg. I get the importance of the steady head but one can do that and still load weight to the back leg on the take away.

[iacas]

[QUOTE name="Kujan" url="/t/30537/the-stack-and-tilt-golf-swing/1746#post_1182727"] To me it looks like his head is favoring the front leg. I get the importance of the steady head but one can do that and still load weight to the back leg on the take away.[/QUOTE] Not only does your weight shift back (your arms move back, for example), but your pressure, your force can easily and almost always does shift back during the backswing, even with a steady head. Again, check out… [CONTENTEMBED=/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing layout=block] [/CONTENTEMBED]

[Kujan]

Not only does your weight shift back (your arms move back, for example), but your pressure, your force can easily and almost always does shift back during the backswing, even with a steady head. Again, check out…

56% on the front leg at setup seems like an attempt to limit the amount of backward weight transfer. I probably do the opposite. Even though I attempt to setup balanced, the right hand is below the left so I've got some backwards spine tilt and as a result more than 50% on the back leg.

[mvmac]

Then I really wish Bennett and Plummer would publish their current understanding in a revised edition of the book.

Their current understanding hasn't changed and it's not like they haven't been made aware of the correct pressure data.

[DrvFrShow]

It sounds like they're aware of the correct pressure data and understand it, but it's now become a belief system. Once something becomes a belief system it is almost impossible to change it regardless of facts.

Then people split off and start teaching it incorporating the correct data, but just don't call it S&T; because they can't due to legal reasons.

[newtogolf]

I've been wondering about Stack and Tilt, and have been subscribing to this site's swing training.

So, if this method I'm learning is some offshoot of ST, so be it. I don't really care one way or another. It's a comfortable swing that I think can easily carry my current game into my 70s or even longer. Good for the swing, and I don't care what it's called.

Well, what I'm wondering is why so many instructors discuss it with such disdain?

I think it's like any swing method / pattern that promises all golfers instant and great results.  Andy and Mike generated a lot of hype based on some questionable "science" that made them and some that were close to them wealthy.  I'd heard that as some S&T; instructors started to question the "science" they were discredited and shunned by the S&T; community which left them a bit disgruntled.

Ultimately we want to see our scores go lower and no one cares what the swing is called that we accomplish that with.

If you're referring to this site, 5SK isn't about a swing method, it's about key elements of a swing that a golfers swing should possess for good ball striking, the keys are independent of the swing method / pattern.  Which is different from S&T; that provides explicit instructions on how you address the ball and swing the club.

[mvmac]

Good post @newtogolf

@Lihu check this out.

[RussUK]

So is S&T; still a valid and worthwile pattern? Reason i ask is that for the past year or so the book has been sat staring at me from the book shelf. I tried it before i got a bad injury and just never got back into it. Anyway, i want to be more consistent and feel a mechanically simpler swing may be the ticket.

Im ok on the setup (have a tendancy for too wide a stance and for left knee to collapse inwards towards ball), left shoulder down etc., but have trouble understanding how to get the hips to slide and the "jumping" they mention coming into impact.

Having watched a clip of Mike Bennet from 2009 the slo mo looks like in transistions into the downswing by leaning left, as if someone is gentley pushing him towards the target.

Not too many instructors in the UK other than James Ridyard but still looking.

Or should i look more to 5SK?

[newtogolf]

So is S&T; still a valid and worthwile pattern? Reason i ask is that for the past year or so the book has been sat staring at me from the book shelf. I tried it before i got a bad injury and just never got back into it. Anyway, i want to be more consistent and feel a mechanically simpler swing may be the ticket.

Im ok on the setup (have a tendancy for too wide a stance and for left knee to collapse inwards towards ball), left shoulder down etc., but have trouble understanding how to get the hips to slide and the "jumping" they mention coming into impact.

Having watched a clip of Mike Bennet from 2009 the slo mo looks like in transistions into the downswing by leaning left, as if someone is gentley pushing him towards the target.

Not too many instructors in the UK other than James Ridyard but still looking.

Or should i look more to 5SK?

Some believe it's still a worthwhile pattern for those that are "less athletic" and better suited for those that deal with nagging injuries or age related injuries / limitations.  Some SnT guys made it on the tour which lends it some credibility.

I think the biggest issue is will you be able to find someone in your area that teaches SnT if you want instruction beyond the books and videos.

I'd recommend 5SK only because it's not a swing pattern, you can strive to achieve the 5 keys no matter what swing pattern you use.

[mvmac]

So is S&T; still a valid and worthwile pattern?

Im ok on the setup (have a tendancy for too wide a stance and for left knee to collapse inwards towards ball), left shoulder down etc., but have trouble understanding how to get the hips to slide and the "jumping" they mention coming into impact.

Yes, done correctly it's a good pattern.

Focus more on your priority than trying to learn a "swing" or go by a checklist. The ten words, book, DVD is just information, not a gameplan for improving your swing.

Or should i look more to 5SK?

FYI

What's the takeaway from this? There are a few.

5 Simple Keys® is not something new - it's just a new and greatly simplified way of looking at the golf swing, which makes it easier to understand and easier to focus on the areas you need to improve.

The fewer Keys a player has mastered, the higher their handicap is likely to be. There are exceptions, but they're pretty rare.

5 Simple Keys® is not "one swing" at all. Again, Jim Furyk and Rory McIlroy swing very little alike, but they have all 5 Simple Keys®. You get to swing with your own unique characteristics. It's not a cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all "method" - it's a simple system that takes the swing you've got and adds in emphasis where it counts - on only five things.

Many members here love what 5SK has done for their game. Again, whether you're a Hogan fan, a Tiger fan, a Haney, Harmon, Ballard, Leadbetter, Foley, Plummer, Cook, Manzella, or McLean fan (or any other), they all teach swings that fit within and satisfy all 5 Simple Keys®.

Nobody here is really dogmatic about any particular "swing style." We may have preferences here and there (for example, flaring your feet allows you to achieve some of the Keys more easily), but we'll always have reasons that go back to the Keys, and they're just preferences, not requirements. Just ask.

[RussUK]

Yes, done correctly it's a good pattern.

Focus more on your priority than trying to learn a "swing".

FYI

Thanks Mike, the idea of minimising weight transfer appeals to me so i guess that would be Key #2 to look at?

My head is pretty steady, a little movement side to side but no bobbing up/down. Would you advocate the left shoulder down with 5SK?

[mvmac]

Thanks Mike, the idea of minimising weight transfer appeals to me so i guess that would be Key #2 to look at?

My head is pretty steady, a little movement side to side but no bobbing up/down. Would you advocate the left shoulder down with 5SK?

I added a little more to my last post.

Key #2 is Weight Forward at impact . Pressure increases under the trail foot on the backswing, whether it's a S&T; swing or a Leadbetter swing. Just because the pressure shifts back (right) doesn't mean you "shift" your body right.

Thanks Mike, the idea of minimising weight transfer appeals to me so i guess that would be Key #2 to look at?

My head is pretty steady, a little movement side to side but no bobbing up/down. Would you advocate the left shoulder down with 5SK?

Yes, that's part of how the head remains steady. Lead shoulder moves down and back. Shoulders and hips turn at right angles to the address inclination. The head is just a reference point.

[RussUK]

I added a little more to my last post.

Key #2 is Weight Forward at impact. Pressure increases under the trail foot on the backswing, whether it's a S&T; swing or a Leadbetter swing. Just because the pressure shifts back (right) doesn't mean you "shift" your body right.

Yes, that's part of how the head remains steady. Lead shoulder moves down and back. Shoulders and hips turn at right angles to the address inclination.

Ah, that makes more sense. The S & T book isnt the clearest of books especially in regards to the weight not shifting. So am i right in saying that Key 1 links directly to Key 2 in that as the head is steady and the body is staying centered, they main shift should feel to be going forward (to target) rather than back then forward? (if that makes sense)

Sorry if im getting muddled, us Yorkshiremen are simple folk!

[metbid]

I have problems with weight forward when playing...finding myself 'light' on my left side.  This S&T; method looks as if it would benefit me.  Can you point me to any drills for practicing it?

[taxgolf]

Darren Hopwood