The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[BallStriker]

Ball Position & Width of Stance

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance. Yes, it was a lofted club (maybe an 8 or 9 iron), but it looked like he was just a couple of balls in front of his right foot (very narrow stance, but certainly back of center).

Anyway, being a person that has played the ball well back my stance for years, are there fundamental problems with the S&T if you play the ball back in your stance -- mine has moved up a bit with the focus on keeping my head position still and maintaining the feeling of keeping my weight forward, but still feel most comfortable with the ball back of center with everything from about my 6 iron and higher (my 3-5 are generally played about center of my stance, with my driver just inside left foot). Thanks.

[mchepp]

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance. Yes, it was a lofted club (maybe an 8 or 9 iron), but it looked like he was just a couple of balls in front of his right foot (very narrow stance, but certainly back of center).

I would caution you to be very careful in watching videos of Mike Bennett from clinics. Often he is trying to demonstrate a particular shot and may not be hitting the ball with his stock pattern. When you attend a clinic he will hit hooks, draws, over-draws, pushes, etc trying to demonstrate different things. Without being there you cannot tell what he was trying to do with this shot.

If you want to see a generic ball position better you check out some videos of Charlie to see his ball position. But even with that, I would say that in general you might need to experiment on what works best for you. Many times I will see guys start with the ball further back in the stance because it can be easier to draw from that position.

[iacas]

I was watching a few youtube videos and came across one showing Mike Bennet's footwork -- what surprised me is that his ball position was clearly back of center, and that was at an odd camera angle that would appear (to me) to actually make the ball appear more forward in his stance.

Mike doesn't play the ball back of center. I know what Michael is saying below, but even when he's demonstrating the biggest pushes and the biggest draws, the farthest he'll go back (admittedly with a mid-iron, like a 6-iron) is center of stance.

I don't know if I know which video you're talking about, though. Could you post it here?

[BallStriker]

Erik, this is the best I can do -- I haven't tried to embed a video yet, so not sure it works. That said, it sure looks back of center to me -- but mchepp could be right about trying to do something else, or maybe I am wrong on the cameral angle (or maybe these aren't even Mike Bennett's feet).

[iacas]

Erik, this is the best I can do -- I haven't tried to embed a video yet, so not sure it works. That said, it sure looks back of center to me -- but mchepp could be right about trying to do something else, or maybe I am wrong on the cameral angle (or maybe these aren't even Mike Bennett's feet).

They're Mike's feet. The guy taking the video is in front of the middle of his stance. He needs to take one giant step to his left and you'll see the ball position better. Note how Mike's right foot appears to be closer to the camera - his stance looks closed. Mike's stance is square to ever-so-slightly open.

I conclude camera position. Thanks for posting the video. It's a good one for displaying the footwork.

[david_wedzik]

OK - shameless plug time to some extent - here is a footwork video we did recently.

Dave

[BallStriker]

Good stuff Dave, that is a good video to see the leg movement (and arms at the top) and not get caught up with where the arms/hands are throughout -- I have a quick question -- have either you or Erik worked with someone and advocated a ball position back of center for that player based on their body type and/or swing? I go 6' 1" and about 240 -- pretty barrel chested -- I have a hard time hitting the ball from the inside the further I go forward with my ball position.

In any event, it is working for me and even if I am not adopting S&T in full, the conscious thought of feeling like I am staying forward has eliminated a backward slide of my hips and very much flattened out my ball flight (from a pretty good draw to a very soft draw).

Thanks.

[Stu.C]

[Third thing, is to "keep arms straight" right after impact zone while maintaining the "flying wedge of right wrist". This may be a bit difficult to achieve, but this is crucial in getting the straight/draw ball flight out of longer clubs.

I try doing this, with my irons they are all straight-straight (no push-draw in sight) except for my 3 where I hit a straight-fade, no doubt related to the others staying straight. I should be happy with straight irons, but I'm not (that is not what is supposed to be happening). If I could get my swing to a point where I could hit a slight push-draw, with a 4-iron say, then, in theory, I should be able to hit a straight-push with my 3. Does that make sense?

Maybe I need to take everything back one ball in my stance though I would rather try getting it working before I go looking for fixes. I hit a 7 from the middle of my stance as it is. I need to video my swing I guess, not too many S&T instructors in Singapore/ I'll keep at it. thanks for your input.

[iacas]

I have a quick question -- have either you or Erik worked with someone and advocated a ball position back of center for that player based on their body type and/or swing?

No... move the ball too far back and the club won't have come down enough. To hit a solid shot you would need to keep your weight back and artificially add secondary axis tilt (right shoulder dropping). Dave's worked with people with larger chests and it's still a matter of getting your hips to slide forward enough. Practice pre-setting your weight forward and taking a divot towards your front toe. That's an exaggerated forward position, but my guess is you'll figure out a way to do it unless every part of your spine is fused straight.

You can do it.... I have confidence. Oh, and Stu, I'm going to film a quick video later today if I can showing a drill for helping with the arms straight.

[Bo the Golfer]

Is there any real issue with using the S&T pattern with an open stance? With my build and lack of flexibilty it seems to be the only way to get through the ball. I have tried from a closed then square stance and have had all sorts of issues.

[iacas]

Is there any real issue with using the S&T pattern with an open stance? With my build and lack of flexibilty it seems to be the only way to get through the ball. I have tried from a closed then square stance and have had all sorts of issues.

Nope. The pattern calls for a fairly square stance but so long as your hips rotated open well enough on the backswing

The problem is that a lot of people misunderstand PUSHING the hips and almost nobody pushes the hips enough. Rotation is not the issue - almost everyone rotates enough (or too much, too soon). Almost nobody pushes forward enough. I'd be worried that with an open stance your hips won't rotate properly on the takeaway and then will rotate too much instead of pushing forward on the downswing.

[Zeph]

A little word on the hip push. It has probably been stated earlier, but I will do it again. It is important that everyone find their own way to push the hips forward. The motion is somewhat the same, but what triggers and drive them forward can be different. Some feel the hips pushing out, some like to use the left knee, right knee, right foot etc. I've worked a lot on the hip push lately, and have found that trying to push the hips forward is not what works best. With the S&T swing, I'm more centered towards the left foot and the body is right on top of it. That puts me in a position at the top of the backswing where the hips don't have any leverage in order to move forward. Using either of the knees, or the right foot works much better for me.

I have always rotated the hips too early and not gotten the proper hip push. When I try pushing the hips, I often end up rotating them at the same time. By using the knees and legs, there is no conscious movement of the hips, so they won't rotate until they reach the point where it happens automatically.

That's what works for me, it may be different for someone else. The point is that you have to experiment to find what works best for you.

[Bo the Golfer]

Thanks Erik-I'll keep the worries you pointed out in mind when I work on this. With S&T I have felt quite often that I am hitting the ball better than ever but came upon a recent rough patch where my only fix was opening my stance. I'll just kepp thinking push, push, push as far as the hips.

[colin007]

question. in reading the book, one of the main points is to keep the shoulder center (the swing axis) stable. they tell you to picture a compass used to draw a circle. they also say to move the low point of the swing forward by pushing the weight forward. if the swing axis stays in the same spot, then i cant see how the low point would move. if im drawing a circle with a compass and dont move that needle, then the circle doesnt move either.

so i guess what im asking is, whats moving the low point forward if the shoulder center doesnt move?

[Goowa]

Great forum everyone! Been lurking for a while, picking up lots of usefull tips!

I'm a born again golfer. I went from playing about 3 times per week abou 10 years ago and shooting mid 80's to only playing about 6 rounds in the last 10 years. We recently moved and joined a local Country Club, so now I'm back into the swing of things (pardon the pun)

I've played about 14 rounds this year, finally got fitted for clubs and even took a lesson. My problem is that I'm shooting 105 one day and 85 the next due to my erratic iron play.

I've decided to give S&T; a try and see if I can't get more consistent. I practiced for about an hour yesterday with mixed results, and while I don't expect to re-invent my swing in one hour, my question for those of you that have had success with S&T; is how long after you started implementing the changes, did you feel comfortable taking those changes to the course?

Was it work on one part at a time and gradually change your swing during a round, or get it all worked out on the range first and use your old swing on the course, or a combination.

Hoping I can cure my inconsistent striking soon!

[Dave]

Good thread. I bought the book over the winter and admit I haven't put much time in to reading it and haven't gotten past the first few chapters. However, I have taken two 'principles' and have tried to apply them to my game. Setting my weight a bit forward at address and trying not to move off the ball during the back swing.

As a result, my ball flight has gone from 'who knows' to a slight pull. I'm still hitting a bit from the outside, but the ball is finding the fairway (and I know which way the ball's going).

I'll get deeper in to the S&T swing as time and practice permit, but it seems you can still see positive results without applying the full S&T theory.

[killerduck]

my question for those of you that have had success with S&T is how long after you started implementing the changes, did you feel comfortable taking those changes to the course?

As soon as I started to keep my weight over the ball (forward-ish) on backswing, I immediately hit the ball better on the course. I've even bombed clean over a couple of par 3's. I don't know how much S&T I actually do, I just borrowed the weight part of it.

[iacas]

they also say to move the low point of the swing forward by pushing the weight forward. if the swing axis stays in the same spot, then i cant see how the low point would move. if im drawing a circle with a compass and dont move that needle, then the circle doesnt move either.

That's a good question. It's a matter of two things.

The first piece is that your swing arc is lengthened in the downswing. The circle - the radius - gets bigger. Your left arm comes into impact higher (which is straighter - more uncocked) than it was at address and - ideally - more forward (flat left wrist versus the cupped wrist at setup). A longer arc will likely bottom out behind the ball, so we need to move it forward. This is where it becomes almost an issue of semantics, really... if the swing center stays the same but the radius gets longer, you're going to bury the club into the ground a foot behind where you address it. But think about where your left shoulder is - vertically - at setup. Your shoulders aren't tilted much and your centers are stacked. Into impact, pushing the hips forward changes the orientation of your centers, which changes the orientation of the shoulders -the left shoulder goes higher which delays the club getting into the ground. So the swing center doesn't "truly" move forward, but rather it feels as if it's moved forward because you're giving the longer radius more time before it hits the ground (ideally about an eighth of an inch after it hits the ball).