The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[nevets88]

I'll get to your question in a bit, but why do you say "shoulders"? The lead shoulder goes down, out, and back while the trail shoulder goes up, back, and forward. Only one shoulder goes "down."

You're right - lead shoulder down. I think I was swaying or tilting or not making a complete shoulder turn or doing something to make the hands go up/out instead of deep, but I think I figured it out.

Anyways, after a lesson with Steve Sieracki and alot of range time afterwards to let the whole thing sink in, I decided to go full bore into adopting the SnT pattern. I had a major problem at first after the lesson because the feelings were so different, but kept at it and I'm trying to do most of the bullet points now - weight forward, shoulder down, hands deep, back knee straighten a little, extend arms, raise the belt as opposed to just the weight forward hands deep part. Working especially on the weight shift forward, tuck butt and extend arms and I think I'm starting to get it. Hitting more straight, fewer fat shots now. If anyone is in the NYC metro area and looking for a SnT instructor, I highly recommend Steve Sieracki.

[nevets88]

Also wanted to mention - I was in the dubious camp of the SnT looks like it's bad for your back and I've read posts by those who are informed that it isn't, but I still was.

I've went to the range 5 days in a row and hit more than a few large buckets really working on the tuck the hip raise the belt motion. To my surprise - back feels fine. Not even sore. So I was wrong about that.

[nevets88]

Hypothetical:

If you implement most of the "parts" of SnT except for hands deep, that swing would involve a serious reroute down, no?

I'm guessing not many people implement the pattern without the hands deep part.

[Zeph]

Depends where the hands move. They can be slightly off plane without it looking like Ryan Moore, Fred Couples or Jim Furyk.

[nevets88]

If I don't take the hands deep, I hit close to the heel. It makes me throw the right side out a tad. That's what is making me think hands deep is well, not essential, but a pretty darn important piece to SnT. Or maybe it is essential - depending on the person. I can reroute, but that makes me inconsistent and goes against the grain of a one plane swing, which I'm aiming for.

On the other hand, if I take the hands too deep, I hit hooks. It's a little disconcerting to hit way right on one shot and follow it up with another that goes way left.

[nevets88]

Which part of the SnT moves the clubpath in to out more? The hip slide forward or the hip tuck? To me, it feels like 50/50.

[motteler621]

Which part of the SnT moves the clubpath in to out more? The hip slide forward or the hip tuck? To me, it feels like 50/50.

from what Ive noticed so far, its the deep hands on backswing. lateral hip slide and what your doing with your feet and legs. Then theres also what your doing on your backswing that plays a big part. Thats what Ive gotten to so far. Not sure which one does the most, all play an important part

[Shindig]

When I go to the range next - probably early this week - I'm going to try the 6 step starting guide from Golf Digest (Dec 09, p.86). Unfortunately, I'm not sure I understand step 3: "Hands In." Is it as simple as keeping your hands near to your body during the swing instead of trying to artificially create width by pushing my hands away?

In any case, it's clear that what I've been doing the past year isn't working, and I'm going to give S&T a good shot for the next few months and see where it takes me. I read the first chapter of the book last night at a bookstore (but wasn't able to pick up the book then, for various reasons). I'm going to pick up a copy soon.

[iacas]

When I go to the range next - probably early this week - I'm going to try the 6 step starting guide from

Essentially, yes. A lot of people will feel this with the #4 pressure point: the point on your chest where your upper left arm touches it. If you have a cigar there, and the pressure at address is 1, the pressure on the cigar will gradually reach 10 at the top of the backswing and the actual point will rise up from low and left of your nipple (sorry, not really a better term for it!

) to roughly even with your nipple (depending on where it is - it varies a little based on genetics and body shape). But keep the pressure there and "crush" the cigar on the backswing. Yes, that's hands in. Much more here: Deep Hands Explained . See in particular post #15 in that thread with the image to explain why "width" is actually "depth."

[Shindig]

Well, I couldn't wait and went to the range this afternoon to get started. The first 10 (weight on front foot) didn't look too different, but they felt different. The next 10 (left shoulder down) started going low, short, and hooking. But I didn't expect each step to be an improvement: I figured it's on the way to the end goal. Besides, new motions are supposed to be uncomfortable for any swing change. It was during these that I started consciously straightening my right leg in the backswing.

The next 10 didn't feel so different; I consciously kept my hands in, but I suspect I already do that. I'm getting a tripod soon, and hopefully my camera can record sufficiently well to post and share a video.

The a-ha moment happened at the next 10: tucking the butt under my torso through impact. Straight, high, felt great.

The 5th set of 10, arms straight to finish, also felt great. I imagined I was the PGA Tour logo when I did it successfully. And when coupled with the butt under torso, it was the first time I remember hearing the CRACK! sound when hitting a ball. I hope that's a good thing. I had a few balls left over (buckets at this course are approx. 60) and hit a few other clubs with 'em. Once I get a little more used to it, I'll venture beyond the 5-iron though.

Anyway, I'm hooked and have already ordered the book. Many thanks to Erik for answering my questions, and to both David and Erik for the questions you answered in the thread already (I did some reading last night).

[iacas]

Sweet Shindig. Good to hear man. Keep at it and I'm sure you've read the "Filming Your Swing" article.

[iacas]

Just a quick, semi-funny video I made this evening:

[i-Guy]

Anyway, I'm hooked and have already ordered the book. Many thanks to Erik for answering my questions, and to both David and Erik for the questions you answered in the thread already (I did some reading last night).

Welcome to the S&T; side of golf...even if you never do the S&T; perfectly, I can guarantee that your ball striking will improve just trying to execute the entire pattern correctly...now is the time to start getting out of your golf game what you always thought you should...enjoy!

[canadianpro]

Great Video Erik!

Maybe they bought the book?????

PB

[khale]

My stack-n-til progress report after 4 months. I continued to have problem with push or push+fade with Stack-n-tilt swing. I don't know if I am doing stack-n-tilt right or not. My friend is buying a video camera so we can tape our swings and I plan to post it here. My push or push+fade problem is not huge. I have learned to play with it in the last few weeks. However, this new stack-n-tilt swing is still way more predictable compared to my old swing.

For the driver, my current ball trajectory is very consistent. I just have to aim between the left rough and center of fairway and hit. The ball will usually start out straight left and then tails to the right at the end. Sometimes it goes straight. Now I am hitting 65% of fairways compared to around 45% pre stack-n-tilt. Distance is about the same about 230 to 250 yards. With my irons, I have to aim between left edge and center of green. Sometimes I push it so much that I miss it to the right of the green. May be I should aim at the left edge of the green because I rarely ever miss left but I find it difficult to aim that much far left. There must be something fundamentally wrong with my swing that once I post here you guys can see. The biggest improvement with stack-n-tilt are pitching, chipping, and sand play. I don't keep short game stats but I feel that my pitching/chipping is very solid now. I tend to chip behind the ball in the past. The ball mark on the club face is about the size of the half dollar coin now. Before, stack-n-tilt it was all over the club face. Overall I am very happy. My handicap has dropped from 15 to 12.5. So this definitely works for me.

[Shindig]

Welcome to the S&T side of golf...even if you never do the S&T perfectly, I can guarantee that your ball striking will improve just trying to execute the entire pattern correctly...now is the time to start getting out of your golf game what you always thought you should...enjoy!

Yeah. I finally got a tripod too, so I can try to take video (I hope my camera is good enough) and see if I'm doing things right. When I think I have the basic form down - I've done the 30 minute drill twice, and hit my warm-up balls yesterday doing my best to do all 5 - I may try to post a video.

[michaeljames92]

Doing this method, kinda feels like cheating in a way. Figured out that my head was moving in front of the ball and I think was causing low fades. Played on saturday and hit some great shots(and a few bad ones) but generally thought i hit the ball pretty well but missed 5 putts inside of 4 1/2 feet. and as a result shot 79. So my swing thought was to keep weight forward and have the feeling of having my head behind the ball(I suspect it probably wasn't) and as a result hit some of the flushest and damn high 4 irons of my life. I will check my swing on video this week, to make sure but I am very happy on the progress of this.

[Shindig]

Well, today was my first time hitting at a grass range since attempting the change a week ago or so. I hit off of grass on Saturday when I played (88, good for 3rd place in my flight), and while I tried to maintain the things I was working on, I have no idea what fraction were.

Unfortunately, I couldn't take video face-on: every time I moved to a stall that had a vacant one face-on, someone then moved into that one. I have some down-the-line video, assuming I lined up the video correctly (this is my first time taking video with a tripod, or of my swing, and one of the first in general).

I'm a bit worried about my hands - whether they're in enough, or at all. And I don't seem to consistently keep my arms straight after impact, or tuck my butt under, even when I focus on these things. I guess some practice will do it. This was only my third bucket since trying the GolfDigest "quickstart" guide to S&T (which corresponds to an early chapter in the book). But I'm not ready to call it "my swing" yet and to start a thread for that. I've also noticed I'm hitting my driver quite low, but it's fading a bit too, so I suspect I'm doing something wrong with that club.

The good news is that I've noticed that my divots are now much more consistently ahead of where the ball was. I wasn't able to put a line down, but I was able to put some tees in the ground to form a small line and look at where the divot was (by lining up the ball appropriately).