Why Would Anyone Want to Carry Their Bag?

[Rochester]

I'm going to blindly believe something someone said just because he has a PhD? I'm not doubting the veracity of his study, but I do doubt his conclusions.

What conclusions do you not agree with? He says, "But this study says, 'No. A carry bag is not necessarily better.' It's not an intuitive thought for people." You don't agree with that? If you don't doubt the veracity of his study, then one could only conclude that his statement is accurate. BTW... he has a book on the subject:

Physical Golf

[dkglf]

Playing a round on the course is a treat for me and I get plenty better excersise in the gym. Using walking as an excuse for your workout doesn't cut it. Walking doesn't build any upperbody strength. Busting my butt in the gym does. So when it's time to play I much rather ride a cart. However to each his own, some like chocolate some like strawberry, some like vanilla.

[B-Con]

I alternate between walking and pulling. If I'm playing 9 holes I'll carry by default. If I'm playing 18, it depends. I constantly have issues with my neck and shoulders, so if they're not feeling up to par I'll pull. (I bough a cheap pull cart to get that job done.) However, I enjoy carrying and prefer it if I can do it without aggravating anything in my neck or shoulders. Even then, if I couldn't pull (ie, didn't have cart with me) I wouldn't care. It's purely a matter of avoiding post-game physical discomfort.

I'd never even considered that using a pull cart would be frowned upon by anyone. It's a functional way to move a ~20lb object around with you for 4+ hours. Who cares how you do it?

[sean_miller]

Amateurs need to stop making all these excuses for their high score and attribute their score to their GAME not because there is a difference in push cart, pull cart, carry, etc.

The only part I'd question is making a judgement of someone who typically carries having issues with powercarts (or vise versa).

There are some slightly OCD among us who have a very distinct (bordering on superstitous) pre-shot routine. If it involves pacing off yardage or setting down the bag and getting it with a rangefinder/GPS, then pulling the club, etc, then sharing a powercart can be a truly horrendous experience.

[Rochester]

Ok, how about the 8 people on this site that have opposite findings during our play? Should our own experiences not be validated because we don't hold a PhD?

In a lot of research, you are testing for the null hypothesis, which, in this case, would be that the method of conveying your clubs makes no difference in your score. He presents the facts as he found them, and then simply stated that "... a carry bag is not necessarily better." In my first post, I said "Your mileage may vary," meaning, of course, that your experiences may differ from those of his subjects. The bottom line... there really is no rationalization for carrying your clubs, pushing your clubs, pulling your clubs, or riding in a cart, other than your own desire. The only conclusion I drew from the study is that carrying your clubs isn't going to be better exercise than pushing them.

[Fourputt]

well, so far this study is the only "evidence" that supports the thought that carrying hurts your score. wheres the evidence otherwise? because you say so?

The calories burned is the same (or actually slightly in favor of the push cart) because you are still doing essentially the same amount of work (W=FxD). That's pretty basic physics, and that formula doesn't change. In fact you may be doing a tiny bit more because you have added the weight of the cart and the effort necessary to overcome the friction in the wheels and in the contact with the ground, grass, etc.

It is slightly easier on the whole body to push vs. carry because the load is being distributed over more muscles. When carrying you almost exclusively use the legs. They carry all of the load and do most of the work while walking. When pushing, the weight is carried by the cart and the work of pushing is done by the legs, arms, shoulders, and back. Thus, in theory with all else being equal none of those muscle groups get as tired when pushing a good quality cart as your legs alone do when carrying your bag. One other difference I've noticed too. In practice (and in my own observation) I think that pushers tend to load the bag heavier than carriers do. They are more inclined to be prepared for bad weather, load up more water/munchies/balls and other incidentals - even have a larger bag than the typical carrier does. They have that luxury since the workload is more evenly distributed throughout the body.

[nevets88]

What conclusions do you not agree with? He says, "But this study says, 'No. A carry bag is not necessarily better.' It's not an intuitive thought for people." You don't agree with that? If you don't doubt the veracity of his study, then one could only conclude that his statement is accurate. BTW... he has a book on the subject:

His study proves for those 8 people, those who used push carts scored lower for the given conditions at that time. To say what applies to 8 people applies to all golfers, I myself am not going to believe that.

[sean_miller]

His study proves for those 8 people, those who used push carts scored lower for the given conditions at that time. To say what applies to 8 people applies to all golfers, I myself am not going to believe that.

To say it doesn't apply to you (or me) is likely valid. To say with certainty that it doesn't apply to either the average North American Fata$$ or the typical chronic backpain suffering guy is also a leap.

[zeg]

I didn't see that they said how many rounds they played other than "a few" times through the front nine. That suggests to me that, first of all, concluding the effect on scores for 18 hole rounds is dubious at best. But that was, to my reading, an incidental and tentative conclusion. The article's phrasing about how this "proves" such and such smacks of typical journalist "simplifying" of a scientist's actual claims---I'm a scientist and although I haven't yet had many journalists beating down my door to write articles about my research, I've seen it happen to others. I'd bet that the original study is more reserved about what this means.

His main thrust was to study the physiology and physical effects. I see no reason to doubt that the calorie usage numbers are representative, both of larger samples and longer rounds. The overall numbers may change a bit depending on your health and the nature of the course, but fundamentally those result from exertion of energy.

But without a careful study including control groups and detailed statistics of rounds with various modes of locomotion, it's going to be really hard to draw a firm conclusion. We all know that a swing of 3 or 4 strokes between rounds can happen just because the golf gods were feeling grouchy. You need to have enough rounds to look at the statistics of all the carrying rounds and all the statistics of, say, the push-cart rounds and be sure that the difference between them is significantly larger than the scatter within the two sets. You could probably do this with fewer rounds and fewer golfers than the lay person would think, but it's not clear from that article that this was done carefully enough to be convincing.

As it is, I'd say it's an interesting data point, and not entirely implausible. If it's true, I'd say that the impact on 18 hole scores is probably greater if anything. But I don't care, I still prefer to carry.

(and I've nearly got my PhD)

[Rochester]

His study proves for those 8 people, those who used push carts scored lower for the given conditions at that time. To say what applies to 8 people applies to all golfers, I myself am not going to believe that.

I don't blame you! I don't think Woldokoff ever said that. I don't think I ever said that. In fact, I said, "

As for scores... if a larger sample were used, I would be surprised if those carrying their bags actually scored that much higher. However, the claims in this thread contradicting the results of his study are just anecdotal, or speculative. I'm not a statistician. I don't know if eight subjects is a large enough sample. So without some scientific data to the contrary, I'm not going to refute his claims. " The main reason I posted originally was because there were several comments expressing an opinion that carrying the bag was, somehow, better exercise than pushing a cart. I think the study shows that it is not, which was somewhat counter-intuitive for me. The OP mentioned the score thing, and somebody asked for a reference, so I provided it.

[Zeph]

I would still carry and sacrifice those couple of shots. Statistics don't mean anything to the individual.

[nevets88]

I don't blame you! I don't think Woldokoff ever said that. I don't think I ever said that. In fact, I said, "

Ah, calories burned, that's more objective. I'm no physiology expert, but calories burned walking or pushing about the same sounds reasonable and you can measure calories burned scientifically, no? But scoring, that is a whole subjective can of worms.

If I wanted to burn 500 calories, personally, I'd much rather run it as it's so much faster. I just prefer to carry because it's one less thing to manage, one less headache, one less thing to buy/rent.

[Fourputt]

I would still carry and sacrifice those couple of shots. Statistics don't mean anything to the individual.

You can't draw statistical data from individual experience, but statistical analysis of properly gathered scientific data can definitely be meaningful to an individual. He may choose to ignore it, but that doesn't invalidate its potential significance.

[nuck81]

Is it not ok to carry just because You like to do it?

[Dave H]

Is it not ok to carry just because You like to do it?

Personally, I don't think there's any issue if you wish to carry, push a cart, pull a cart, or ride on a power cart. Just don't look down on me because I choose to do one of those options and it happens to differ from your preference. I really don't see what the big deal is with any of those options. To each their own.

[nuck81]

I have enough issues just lugging around my johnson all day. What difference will a 20lb golf bag make?

[Zeph]

You can't draw statistical data from individual experience, but statistical analysis of properly gathered scientific data can definitely be meaningful to an individual. He may choose to ignore it, but that doesn't invalidate its potential significance.

I agree, but if you gather statistical data of 30 people, with the average being E, there can be some at +3 and some at -3. The average won't tell the individual where on the scale he or she is at.

[martytilma]

the modern push carts (sun mountain, bag boy...) are so good, theres no reason not to have one.

I can think of a good reason, I don't feel like paying for it!