We're All Still Here? Nobody Raptured?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by BostonSully

Oh and he's not giving any back. 88 Year old dude just made a fool out of thousands of people. I mean what does he care about the rapture for anyways he'll be gone soon enough.

Some would argue that [insert religion other than your own here] are making fools of thousands of people.

[Yukari]

I don't know why the media is giving him all this attention.

He should be ignored completely.

The only reason he is "famous" is because the stupid media is giving him the time to report on this quack!

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Yukari

I don't know why the media is giving him all this attention.

He should be ignored completely.

I thought there was something going on this weekend. I tried to watch the event from Colonial and all the interesting golfers were missing. Maybe they got sent the other direction?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Yukari

I don't know why the media is giving him all this attention.

He should be ignored completely.

The only reason he is "famous" is because the stupid media is giving him the time to report on this quack!

Normally I would agree.  But I have to say that the level of income his company reported merits some coverage to this story.  If Madoff is a crook and a con man, what exactly separates him from this guy?

Brandon

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by nuck81

The Second coming of Christ was never intended to be Christ in his new name literally descending from the clouds of Heaven. Baha'u'llahs ministry began in 1844 right in the middle of maelstrom of literal Bible Interpretation and they believe that his coming was missed by most of the Christian Community.

Thanks for your post.  The previously quoted passage in Thessalonians was written by Paul, not during a maelstrom of literal bible interpretation.  The Bible is a collection of books written in human language.  As such, it is subject to appropriate, contextual literary interpretation.  Sometimes, in the case of historical works, the appropriate sense is literal.  Sometimes, in the case of Poetry, the sense is figurative.  Prophecy is a blend of the two.  Within the larger framework of the Bible, from a faith-centered perspective that God exists, He has spoken through the Bible, and His words are non-contradictory and internally consistent, we interpret the phrase "the son of man will come riding on the clouds of heaven" cf. Daniel 7:13 in terms of a prophecy about Jesus first coming.  This is parsed accordingly: "the son of man will come" - literal, "riding on the clouds of heaven" - figurative.  We understand the kind of human language that Daniel is using here and that he means to describe using figurative language an actual event.  That's what prophecy is by definition:  figurative language describing actual events.  If I were to decide, suiting my own desires, that I didn't really want Jesus to come, I would start asking questions like, "Well, it depends on what you mean by come ..."  Biblical Christianity, founded on the most intellectually honest interpretation of the Bible, has always held that Christ actual comes at some point co-temporaneously with the end of the world as we know it.

Baha'i and Christianity are fundamentally incompatible on the basis of the law of non-contradiction, so there's no need to try and find common ground in a logically sensible way.  I appreciate your perspective, however, and welcome more posts.

[nuck81]

Bunkerputt- The law of non-contradiction doesn't really apply here.  The same as it doesn't apply with Judaism and Christianity.  Christianity is a progression of Judaism.  Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith is a progression of Christianity and Islam.

Think of it like this, in Elementary school 4th Grade does not contradict 3rd Grade. It may present things in a different way, or cause you to see something in a different light, but they were taught to you that way in 3rd grade because you're mind wasn't ready for 4th grade.  Baha'is believe that progressive faith works in the same manner.

In Abrahams time people were Pagans and nomads. Abraham through God united people into tribes and brought about Monotheism.  The people were not yet ready for the Ministry of Christ.  Moses brought about the Laws of God and united the Tribes into the people of Israel.  He didn't contradict Abraham but he did progress past Abraham. Jesus arrived and taught that Moses laws were no longer necessary.  He didn't contradict Moses, but the Human Race had developed and grown spiritually far enough that they could do away with the old laws.

Bahai's believe that they are next progression of God's plan for humanity after Christianity and Islam.

I'm a baptized Christian myself, but I do find the Baha'i Faith very interesting.  There is lots of modern ideas and beautiful scripture within the Words of Baha'u'llah.

Take Care!!

[upah]

Originally Posted by Shindig

The people who need some jail time are those who put their pets to sleep in preparation for this thing.

I heard on the radio the other day about people buying insurance policies in which the cunning entrepreneurs remaining would take care of pets left behind following the rapture.  It's like buying a house on Second Life using real money...

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by upah

I heard on the radio the other day about people buying insurance policies in which the cunning entrepreneurs remaining would take care of pets left behind following the rapture.  It's like buying a house on Second Life using real money...

http://eternal-earthbound-pets.com/

You should have seen their page on the 20th.  They were getting so much web traffic that they put up an alert saying that they would only respond to inquiries with payment information from that point on.  They must have done pretty well.

We are a group of dedicated animal lovers, and atheists. Each Eternal Earth-Bound Pet representative is a confirmed atheist, and as such will still be here on Earth after you've received your reward.  Our network of animal activists are committed to step in when you step up to Jesus.

Brandon

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by nuck81

Bunkerputt- The law of non-contradiction doesn't really apply here.  The same as it doesn't apply with Judaism and Christianity.  Christianity is a progression of Judaism.  Baha'is believe that the Baha'i Faith is a progression of Christianity and Islam.

Think of it like this, in Elementary school 4th Grade does not contradict 3rd Grade. It may present things in a different way, or cause you to see something in a different light, but they were taught to you that way in 3rd grade because you're mind wasn't ready for 4th grade.  Baha'is believe that progressive faith works in the same manner.

In Abrahams time people were Pagans and nomads. Abraham through God united people into tribes and brought about Monotheism.  The people were not yet ready for the Ministry of Christ.  Moses brought about the Laws of God and united the Tribes into the people of Israel.  He didn't contradict Abraham but he did progress past Abraham. Jesus arrived and taught that Moses laws were no longer necessary.  He didn't contradict Moses, but the Human Race had developed and grown spiritually far enough that they could do away with the old laws.

Bahai's believe that they are next progression of God's plan for humanity after Christianity and Islam.

I'm a baptized Christian myself, but I do find the Baha'i Faith very interesting.  There is lots of modern ideas and beautiful scripture within the Words of Baha'u'llah.

Take Care!!

Nuck81, maybe this isn't the forum for religious discussion, but since it started and as long as we can keep it friendly, respecting each others right to disagree ...  I think you've made a category mistake.  The law of non-contradiction doesn't imply that A and B cannot coexist.  It implies that A and ~A cannot coexist.  In your example, replace 3rd grade with A and 4th grade with B.  I'm saying Baha'i claims the former, not the later.

Here's an illustrative example with a question....

Christianity (the Bible) teaches that Jesus is God and that he died on a cross for the sins of mankind.  Islam (the Qu'ran) teaches that Jesus is not God and that he did not die on a cross for the sins of mankind.  Baha'i claims that both religions' tenets are true, as you pointed out in your quote.  Can you show me a line of reason proving that this claim is not an absurdity?

Also, the concept of "building on Christianity" isn't a new one.  The Bible claims that Jesus is the final fulfillment of God's plan for mankind and that this revelation is complete (cf. Revelation), with Jesus being the focus, purpose, and pinnacle of Old Testament prophecy.  A few hundred years later, Islam comes around claiming a better prophet with more up-to-date info from God (correcting previous mistakes He made about the exclusive divinity of Jesus ).  If that's the way a revelation from God can be overridden, what's to prevent any random person from claiming to be a prophet, giving people misinformation about the true nature of Jesus, and engendering a following?  After all, isn't that what Joseph Smith did with Mormonism?

It's OK to disagree, and I appreciate your genial tone.  We can have intellectual disagreements and still be amicable forum friends.  In spite of the culture on the net, the two aren't mutually exclusive!

[nuck81]

Christianity (the Bible) teaches that Jesus is God and that he died on a cross for the sins of mankind.  Islam (the Qu'ran) teaches that Jesus is not God and that he did not die on a cross for the sins of mankind.  Baha'i claims that both religions' tenets are true, as you pointed out in your quote.  Can you show me a line of reason proving that this claim is not an absurdity?

That's a very good question!!  Not being a Baha'i myself I don't have an answer for you off my head, but I will do some more research and see what I can come up with.

Also, the concept of "building on Christianity" isn't a new one.  The Bible claims that Jesus is the final fulfillment of God's plan for mankind and that this revelation is complete (cf. Revelation), with Jesus being the focus, purpose, and pinnacle of Old Testament prophecy.

Baha'is would agree that it was the end of Jesus ministry, but not the end of God's divine plan for Humanity.

John 16:12-13 " ¹² “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. ¹³ But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."  This seems to indicate that there is more to God's Divine Plan that Jesus could not reveal because Humanity wasn't ready at his time.

A few hundred years later, Islam comes around claiming a better prophet with more up-to-date info from God (correcting previous mistakes He made about the exclusive divinity of Jesus ).  If that's the way a revelation from God can be overridden, what's to prevent any random person from claiming to be a prophet, giving people misinformation about the true nature of Jesus, and engendering a following?  After all, isn't that what Joseph Smith did with Mormonism?

Another good question.  Jesus said that False Prophets could be identified by the fruits they produced.  He also said that those who look with a spiritual eye and ear will recognize him on his return.  My personal feeling is that this where man must investigate and decide for himself what is truth and what is false.  No one can tell you otherwise. One of the principles of Baha'i Faith that I most admire is the Independent Investigation of truth. Baha'u'llah emphasized that the fundamental obligation of human beings is to acquire knowledge with their "own eyes and not through the eyes of others." God has given each human being a mind and the capacity to differentiate truth from falsehood.  You may find it interesting that Baha'i Faith has no clergy. Their "leadership" at the local, national, and International level is elected on a closed ballot by the members for a "term" of one year.  There is no campaigning and no nominations.  You just vote for who you feel most upholds the Faith.

It's OK to disagree, and I appreciate your genial tone.  We can have intellectual disagreements and still be amicable forum friends.  In spite of the culture on the net, the two aren't mutually exclusive!

Very much agreed!!!

[MiniBlueDragon]

I reckon you guys would be better off discussing your serious religious beliefs in a dedicated religion thread rather than one created to mock a delusional idiot/conman and his idiot followers.

[Shindig]

Am I seeing things, or is this a polite religious debate on the internet?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Shindig

Am I seeing things, or is this a polite religious debate on the internet?

Shhhhhh. If you disturb them, they might notice the same thing... ;-)

[nuck81]

Originally Posted by Shindig

Am I seeing things, or is this a polite religious debate on the internet?

It's been my experience more often than not.  You can tell pretty quick between the smart guys who care and the fakers who just want to tell you you're going to hell. When things stop being polite I generally stop participating.  It's not worth it, and I probably don't have anything I'd want to learn from them anyway.

Bunkerputt- I posed your question about Islam and Christianity to a few of the Baha'is I know.  They are really smart guys and know their stuff a lot better than I do.  Here are their responses:

Basically Baha'i Faith teaches that, in the Quran, Bible or other Scriptures, there are verses that have a spiritual meaning. They express a spiritual reality, and not a physical reality.

The Quran verse saying, that "They did not crucify Him nor Killed Him" is talking about the spirit of Jesus not His physical body. This is explained by Shoghi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, in one of his letters.
There are other verses in Quran, which says Jesus died.

Regarding Jesus being God, Baha'u'llah explained that in the Book of Iqan, that if all Messengers of God say they are God they said the truth, for all the attributes of God are fully Manifested in the Manifestations of God and due to their nearness feelings they expressed their feelings by saying they are God Himself. Quran also has verses showing that Muhammad represented Godhead, and there are Islamic traditions saying "I am He, and He is I...."

and

Baha'is believe in the principle of the Manifestation of God.. that God is perfectly manifested in these Messengers of God for the people of Their day..and that They all sacrificed Their lives as Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah did for the good of humanity..

Further we Baha'is would say that there was a misinterpretation of the Qur'anic verses and that Jesus was indeed martyred on the cross and His Spirit returned to God.

The verse to which the author refers is 4:156 and reads as follows: "And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God'. Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness... No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself."

'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Koran, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

See also Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 85-6. Juan Ricardo Cole discusses Muslim objection to Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ in "the Christian-Muslim Encounter", World Order, Winter 1977-8, pp. 18 and 22.

He also left a link.  http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/custom?q=cache:898jHCvwNiIJ:bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/3.html+crucifixion+Quran&cd;=1&hl;=en&ct;=clnk≷=us&source;=www.google.com

[jamo]

Originally Posted by Shindig

Am I seeing things, or is this a polite religious debate on the internet?

If that isn't a sign of the end of the world, I don't know what is!

[Ringworld]

One thing is for sure, my kids were worried about this Rapture business.  We will not know the time or place it will all start.  I kept telling them so long as they are at peace with themselves then they have nothing to fear.  It bothers me when a guy says, "Opps" once then follows it up with another "Oops" again and expects folks to still follow Camping's lead.  Also bothers me that he knows more than even the Vatican LOL.  And they have the most complete library in the history of Man since Alexandria.

Oh well... now I have to quash my kid's fears because some guy made a mistake.

[newtogolf]

The catholic church has amassed approximately 100 billion dollars in cash and properties all over the world.  Religion is a good business if you can create a following.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Normally I would agree.  But I have to say that the level of income his company reported merits some coverage to this story.  If Madoff is a crook and a con man, what exactly separates him from this guy?

Brandon

[bunkerputt]

Apologies for the strange formatting here.  Bold certainly doesn't mean yelling from me.  Just not wanting to parse html to split apart quotes or dig deeper into the editor....

Originally Posted by nuck81

It's been my experience more often than not.  You can tell pretty quick between the smart guys who care and the fakers who just want to tell you you're going to hell. When things stop being polite I generally stop participating.  It's not worth it, and I probably don't have anything I'd want to learn from them anyway.

That's been my experience as well.  Faith shouldn't be blind, but rather a reasoned set of beliefs that satisfies the mind as well as the heart.  A faith without a foundation of reason crumbles at the first suggestion otherwise:  The first argument seems right, until someone challenges it (Proverbs 18:17).

If any "Christian" wishes anyone to hell, they themselves don't understand the seriousness of their own doctrine.  They are either wolves in sheepskin, or too proud to admit they don't have all the answers.  My sympathies if that's ever happened to you in the past.

I also appreciate that you went to the trouble to do some research.  That shows a mind looking for answers.  My prayer for you is that you find them.

...

Basically Baha'i Faith teaches that, in the Quran, Bible or other Scriptures, there are verses that have a spiritual meaning. They express a spiritual reality, and not a physical reality.

...

Here there is a sharp turn taken in worldviews regarding the concept of truth, and more specifically about the truth of Jesus Christ that is subtle, and I don't want to gloss over it.  This may sound like hand-waving, but it's rather genuinely a recognition that I'm not going to be able to do justice to our discussion on this forum, in the time I can devote to it, and given the nature of the topic.  I assure you it's out of a genuine heart, and I hope you can devote some time to listen to this Indian guy.  The titles of the Mp3's are self-explanatory.

http://rzim.org/resources/listen/letmypeoplethink.aspx?archive=1&i;=100

Send me a PM if you want or hook me up as your friend.  I wish you were in Austin, so we could have some good religious talk over a bad round of golf.