Jack Nicklaus on a Centered Pivot

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Watching a young jack Nicklaus when he was really going after one was the most dynamic move in sport

Okay.

P.S.

The still frame from the "cover" of the YouTube video shows Jack taking his hands in nicely. Jack took his hands in beautifully. The "flying right elbow" was a really late move in his swing, and from there, he swung down on a fairly steep plane.

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

"I don't believe in a lateral shift," says Nicklaus. "Of course not. I believe in staying on the ball." Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers, "They don't know how to play."

Where's the "lateral shift"? Is he "staying on the ball"? Where's the massive "weight shift" Jack says is advocated by people who "don't know how to play"? It's not there. Just because his heel comes off the ground does not mean his "weight shifted." Did his CoG move much? Nope.

If you think I had a student who could hit the ball reasonably solidly, wanted to play a fade, and came to me with Nicklaus's P4, that I'd change it because it doesn't look like some ideal (which is not to say I have an "ideal" - I don't really), you're nuts.

Weight != pressure in a dynamic motion.

Case closed.

[Leftygolfer]

The golf swing isn't a static move.  If you stop at the top of the swing, it probably isn't a swing.  I'm sure the momentum of swinging the club puts more pressure, weight, whatever you want to call it on the back foot.  So what?   Very few good players stop at the top of the swing.  Most have very rythmic (good players) swings.  The only player on the pga tour I can think of that seems to come to a complete stop at the top is ryan moore.

Jack is still the best ever and there is plenty of proof he wanted to stay over the ball in the back swing and worked hard at it.

[johnthejoiner]

Nicklaus set weight at address favoring the right leg and loaded more still into it in the takeaway

[jamo]

Nicklaus set weight at address favoring the right leg and loaded more still into it in the takeaway

You can keep repeating that as many times as you want, but without proving it, you aren't going to convince anybody that wasn't already on your side.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by iacas

Weight != pressure in a dynamic motion.

Case closed.

Thank you.

Kind of chaps my hide that what began as a talk about a centered pivot was abused by the dummies to talk about a "weight shift." Even the people who said he "shifted his weight" (despite the quote in which he responds to the question of shifting weight ), acknowledged a centered pivot.

Not a lot of weight shifting going on in Nicklaus's swing.

[tshapiro]

Working backwards from impact:

- It's a heck of a lot easier to hit a good shot when your core weight is moving onto your left at impact

- It's a heck of a lot easier to get your core weight moving forward if it is somewhat rebounding off a slight rear-ward shift

It's a heck of a lot easier to hit a good shot if your head remains still:

- relative to your target line (rotationally speaking)

- relative to the ground (height)

- relative from forward and backward shifts (Laterally speaking)

...I'm just sayin

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Nicklaus set weight at address favoring the right leg and loaded more still into it in the takeaway

Did you see the pics and video Iacas posted?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

Originally Posted by mvmac

Did you see the pics and video Iacas posted?

I like the ones showing how Jack maintained that right knee flex in his early years. Sorry, since this seems to be an S&T; love in, I thought I'd point that out.

[Mordan]

Jack's quote in the first post is in reference to a weight shift. Wikipedia:

Quote:

In scientific and engineering contexts, weight is the name given to the force on an object due to gravity.

I can stand on a scale and jump up and down and the reading will change from 0 to a lot, but my weight does not change. The force I'm exerting on the scale changes but the gravitational component doesn't. So to measure how much weight someone has over their left or right foot at the top of their backswing (on a scale or pressure pad) they must stop moving so that the only force being measured is the one due to gravity.

So Jack (or any other golfer) can have 50% of his weight over each foot at the same time as 90% of the force he's exerting on the ground is with his right foot.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by iacas

No. Weight and pressure (force) are not the same.

During your video you make a comment about not mimicking Jack very well because he kicked his front knee in to-wards the ball. Well that comes as no surprise to me that you didn't try it on video, because you know as well as any one, the second you would kick the knee in as much as Jack did and  had kept your weight in the same proportions as you did in your video one thing would happen, you would fall to-wards the target or in other words it would be the start of the classic revers pivot. Now i cant remember jack ever being accused of having a revers pivot so there is only one way Jack could have got into that position at the top of the back swing and that was to get a very large proportion of his weight onto the inside of his braced back leg, very much like hitting a baseball and then followed it with the most magnificent kinetic sequences in golf. I would advise everyone to do this because at the end of the day everybody wants to be like Jack

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Jack's quote in the first post is in reference to a weight shift. Wikipedia:

I can stand on a scale and jump up and down and the reading will change from 0 to a lot, but my weight does not change. The force I'm exerting on the scale changes but the gravitational component doesn't. So to measure how much weight someone has over their left or right foot at the top of their backswing (on a scale or pressure pad) they must stop moving so that the only force being measured is the one due to gravity.

So Jack (or any other golfer) can have 50% of his weight over each foot at the same time as 90% of the force he's exerting on the ground is with his right foot.

Sorry, but you've got it wrong.  Your mass stays the same.  Your static weight is your mass x gravity.  If you jump up and down, you are increasing the gravitational acceleration, so the force you exert on the scale will increase, but that larger force is not your weight.

In the case of Nicklaus, his mass may stay centered, but that does not necessarily mean his weight will be balanced 50/50. That will depend on how much force he is exerting on each foot. Weight is a measurement of force.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

During your video you make a comment about not mimicking Jack very well because he kicked his front knee in to-wards the ball. Well that comes as no surprise to me that you didn't try it on video, because you know as well as any one, the second you would kick the knee in as much as Jack did and  had kept your weight in the same proportions as you did in your video one thing would happen, you would fall to-wards the target or in other words it would be the start of the classic revers pivot. Now i cant remember jack ever being accused of having a revers pivot so there is only one way Jack could have got into that position at the top of the back swing and that was to get a very large proportion of his weight onto the inside of his braced back leg, very much like hitting a baseball and then followed it with the most magnificent kinetic sequences in golf. I would advise everyone to do this because at the end of the day everybody wants to be like Jack

The video proves your point, john.  The center of gravity of the mass (the green line) does not mean that the force exerted by each leg is the same.  Taking it a step further, as you say, if Erik were to actually lift his left foot off the ground in the right video, as in a baseball swing, his mass may in fact stay centered, but it would be hard to argue that anything other than 100% of his weight would be on his right foot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's all you have been trying to say all along.

[Mordan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Sorry, but you've got it wrong.  Your mass stays the same.  Your static weight is your mass x gravity.  If you jump up and down, you are increasing the gravitational acceleration, so the force you exert on the scale will increase, but that larger force is not your weight.

Hang on, by jumping up and down I'm changing gravitational acceleration? Graviational acceleration (at least on earth) is a very constant 9.8m/s.

Then you seem to agree with me by saying that mass stays the same, and as static weight is mass x gravity (another constant) therefore you're agreeing that weight doesn't change?

Quote:

In the case of Nicklaus, his mass may stay centered, but that does not necessarily mean his weight will be balanced 50/50. That will depend on how much force he is exerting on each foot. Weight is a measurement of force.

You seem to have conveniently cut out the quote from my post "In scientific and engineering contexts, weight is the name given to the force on an object due to gravity." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight )

When I jump my weight doesn't change but the force I'm exerting on the ground does. The force on the ground becomes both the force I'm exerting due to gravity plus the reactionary force due to me pushing against the ground to accelerate myself upwards. My weight never changes at anytime during the jump (as neither my mass nor gravity changes).

[saevel25]

Quote:

Hang on, by jumping up and down I'm changing gravitational acceleration? Graviational acceleration (at least on earth) is a very constant 9.8m/s.

Then you seem to agree with me by saying that mass stays the same, and as static weight is mass x gravity (another constant) therefore you're agreeing that weight doesn't change?

He's talking about when you get into an elevator, if your on a scale. If the elevator goes up you will weight more, if the elevator goes down you will weight less.

we are Bidpedal creatures, so we are proportional down our midline. That means our weight on our feet,  is proportional depending on how much we are on one side of that line or another. So if you drawa  line dwon the midline of Jack, and his knee kicks in and doesn't pass that midline, then that weight is acting on his left foot.

[chspeed]

This thread was actually interesting, but is not devolved (or evolved) into a physics discussion. Instead of continuing down the golfing machine path and discussing angles and vectors, here's a question that I hope someone can answer.

Assuming your head and body stay centered on the backswing  - I refuse to say "weight shift" ;) - should the swing feel like a baseball pitch? In other words, should you feel like you're lifting your front foot up (even if you don't) and then falling back onto it to start the downswing?

[Harmonious]

CAUTION! SPOILER!    Physics discussion ahead!  Read at your own peril!!!

Originally Posted by Mordan

Hang on, by jumping up and down I'm changing gravitational acceleration? Graviational acceleration (at least on earth) is a very constant 9.8m/s.

Then you seem to agree with me by saying that mass stays the same, and as static weight is mass x gravity (another constant) therefore you're agreeing that weight doesn't change?

To be more exact, I should  substitute "the force created by a falling body" for "gravitational acceleration". And I agree, your mass stays the same regardless of your location in the universe.  Your static weight when you are standing on the earth will remain the same.

Originally Posted by Mordan

When I jump my weight doesn't change but the force I'm exerting on the ground does. The force on the ground becomes both the force I'm exerting due to gravity plus the reactionary force due to me pushing against the ground to accelerate myself upwards. My weight never changes at anytime during the jump (as neither my mass nor gravity changes).

Exactly. Your "actual" weight will remain the same throughout your jump, as it is determined by f=ma, or w=mg.  However, your "apparent" weight, which is actually the reactive force of the earth on you, as measured by a scale, would be zero. Even though your mass and gravity are still present, you are not exerting any force against the earth. When you then hit the ground, your force of impact will be determined by your mass, the height of your jump, and the amount of penetration into the ground.  For example, a person with a mass of 200 pounds (mass pounds is not the same as force pounds) who has a 12 inch vertical leap (Phil Mickelson?) could potentially exert a force of thousands of pounds when he hits the ground, assuming the ground doesn't give too much.  If Phil doesn't cushion his fall by bending his knees, he'll be joining Tiger on the DL. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/flobi.html

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tshapiro

Working backwards from impact:

- It's a heck of a lot easier to get your core weight moving forward if it is somewhat rebounding off a slight rear-ward shift

Nah.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

During your video you make a comment about not mimicking Jack very well because he kicked his front knee in to-wards the ball. Well that comes as no surprise to me that you didn't try it on video, because you know as well as any one, the second you would kick the knee in as much as Jack did and  had kept your weight in the same proportions as you did in your video one thing would happen, you would fall to-wards the target or in other words it would be the start of the classic revers pivot.

No, it wouldn't. If I had kicked my knee in - instead of simply lifting it up to get the heel off the ground - but still not crossed the green line, it would have not have significantly changed my CG or the location of my mass ("weight").

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Taking it a step further, as you say, if Erik were to actually lift his left foot off the ground in the right video, as in a baseball swing, his mass may in fact stay centered, but it would be hard to argue that anything other than 100% of his weight would be on his right foot.

Still not quite right. Where's the "weight shift"? I can temporarily lift my left foot off the ground while striding towards something but my weight distribution and CG could still be 50/50.

Pressure isn't "weight." Pressure isn't the location of the CG.

You'd have all the pressure in the foot that's on the ground (obviously), but so long as the CG isn't over that foot, you're not going to be able to maintain that position statically. The location of the CG - whether it moves, or shifts - determines the "weight shift."

Again: Jack said "no weight shift - those people don't know how to play golf." Sorry...

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by iacas

Still not quite right. Where's the "weight shift"? I can temporarily lift my left foot off the ground while striding towards something but my weight distribution and CG could still be 50/50.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You'd have all the pressure in the foot that's on the ground (obviously), but so long as the CG isn't over that foot, you're not going to be able to maintain that position statically. The location of the CG - whether it moves, or shifts - determines the "weight shift."

Maybe this is where all the confusion, arguments and name calling comes from. Those on one side of this discussion use your current definition of weight shift as "movement of the CG".  Other folks use the definition of weight shift as "the transfer of weight from the back foot to the front foot during the swing". And, to be clear, in the OP, Jack was quoted "I don't believe in a lateral shift", which some have incorrectly interpreted as him saying "I don't believe in a weight shift". Does anyone really think that Jack didn't believe in transferring his weight during his swing?

Here are several quotes I found regarding the definition of weight shift or weight transfer (Googled weight shift definition ):

John Toepel, Conceptgolf.com: "Weight transfer is simply the moving of the body's weight to the back foot and then back to the front foot. The baseball pitcher moves his weight to the back foot and then to the front foot in order to utilize the strength of his body and his legs in moving his body around. In the same way, you must use the strength of your body to move your body around. You use your legs to cause the trunk of your body to move, which in turn causes your arms to be moved so that they don't have to move themselves."

Andrew Rice, author, "It's All About Impact": "Weight shift is a poor term.  Similar to the term “takeaway” it does not convey the appropriate sensation.  My research has shown that the term “weight transfer” would be far better.  And here’s why: When I think of shifting my weight I make a conscious move to get my body over to my back foot for example.  Not good!  The weight transfers in the swing purely due to the motion in the arms hands and club as they travel away from the target.  Think of it this way – if I swing my arms, which each weigh 15 lbs, and a club  in my backswing you can be sure that I am transferring weight onto my back foot. There is however no conscious shifting or body move that gets the weight over there."

Shawn Kelly, PGA  : "In laymen’s terms, a proper weight transfer means that when you execute a golf swing your weight should move to your back foot on the backswing and then transfer to your target side foot on the follow through."

Erik J. Barzeski, The Sand Trap: "If you get 90% of your weight on your front foot just after impact or at impact, the only way for there not to be a weight shift would require you to have 90% of your weight forward at the top of your backswing. Any amount smaller than that is, by definition, a weight shift."

I just can't believe that these folks are all "simpletons", "muppets" or "dummies".