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What happened to etiquette in golf?


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Originally Posted by newtogolf

You accept the risk and potential for injury when you play golf from an errant shot.  While no sane individual would ever intentionally hit at someone, we all know there is the potential that someone slices their drive into the fairway or green you're on.   A golfers obligation is to yell fore if their shot is far enough off target that it places people at risk of getting hit.  Camper is right, some people might not hear it, or react incorrectly to it (looking up instead of ducking), but the golfer can't control that.  Fans at baseballs games sometimes get hit with foul balls, but they don't sue and win damages from the baseball player.

At baseball games their are signs that say that objects may leave the field of play and enter the seating area and they announce it before the game as well. I agree with you though. I've seen signs like that on the first tee at alot of courses.

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Courses I play at have signs, and it's part of the receipt "Play at own risk".  It might be different from state to state, but in NY, unless the golfer is negligent (doesn't yell "Fore" or intended to hit at someone to intimidate or injure the golfer is not liable for injury.  Here are some legal thoughts on the matter;

"On a golf course, a golfer generally has a duty of reasonable care to avoid injury to others. See, Jackson v. Livingston Country Club, Inc. , 55 A.D.2d 1045, 391 N.Y.S.2d 234 (4th Dept. 1977). As a result, a golfer hitting his shot has a duty to timely yell "fore" so as to give warning to those persons in the "foreseeable ambit of danger". Jenks v. McGranaghan , 30 N.Y.2d 475, 479, 334 N.Y.S.2d 641, 643 (1972); Nussbaum v. Lacopo, 27 N.Y.2d 311, 317 N.Y.S.2d 347 (1970); see, also, McDonald v. Huntington Crescent Club, Inc. , 152 A.D.2d 543, 543 N.Y.S.2d 155 (2d Dept. 1989) (summary judgment in favor of golfer precluded in action by caddie who was sturck by ball while standing in intended line of flight of ball and issue existed whether player yelled "fore"). This duty, however, does not extend to someone not in the line of play (though there is not a mathmatical equation to determine whether one is in the line of play) or who is on a contiguous hole or fairway. See, Jenks, supra; Nussbaum, supra; Noe v. Park Country Club of Buffalo , 115 A.D.2d 230, 495 N.Y.S.2d 846 (4th Dept. 1985); Turel v. Milberg , 10 Misc.2d 141, 169 N.Y.S.2d 955 (App. Term 1957). Additionally, a golfer does not exculpate careless or reckless conduct simply by yelling "fore." See, Neumann v. Shlansky, 58 Misc.2d 128, 294 N.Y.S.2d 628 (Co. Ct. Westchester Co 1968), aff'd, 63 Misc.2d 587, 312 N.Y.S.2d 951 (App.Term 1970), aff'd, 36 A.D.2d 540, 318 N.Y.S.2d 925 (2d Dept. 1971).

n Jenks, supra , plaintiff commenced an action to recover for personal injuries sustained when he was hit in the eye by a golf ball. At the time of the incident, the defendant was teeing off on the eighth tee and plaintiff's group was teeing off on the ninth tee, which was located adjacent to the eighth fairway. A mesh fence protected a portion of the ninth tee. At the time defendant teed off, plaintiff walked out from behind the mesh fence. There was no advance warning of defendant's intention to drive, though when the shot began to hook, members of defendant's group shouted "fore," which plaintiff did not hear. The drive hooked to the left, striking plaintiff in the eye. Id. at 478, 334 N.Y.S.2d at 642. Plaintiff argued that defendant was negligent in not giving notice of his intent to drive. The court held that, given plaintiff's location, he was not in the zone of danger and, therefore, defendant had no duty to warn before hitting. Id . at 480, 334 N.Y.S.2d at 644. "The mere fact that a ball does not travel the intended course does not establish negligence." Id . at 479, 334 N.Y.S.2d at 643."   - Markotsis and Lieberman



Originally Posted by camper6

Fans at baseball games get a ticket .  The ticket might state that the risk is on the owner of the ticket.   I have never seen that on a golf course.



Joe Paradiso

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Thanks for that.  That's good information.  This is the point I was trying to make.

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Additionally, a golfer does not exculpate careless or reckless conduct simply by yelling "fore."

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Originally Posted by camper6

Fans at baseball games get a ticket .  The ticket might state that the risk is on the owner of the ticket.   I have never seen that on a golf course.


You get a receipt when you pay your green fees at any course I play, and that is your ticket to play.  That is the ticket I require as a starter to let you on the first tee.  Without it you don't tee off.  I don't see that as any different from a baseball ticket.

Rick

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The agreement that comes on the back of your ticket or receipt in this case means didly. They never hold up in court. For example if a baseball team put seats so close to the batters box that you could not possible react to a foul ball, or if they did not put a net up behind home plate. What it comes down to is inherent risk. Is the mere act of attending or playing an acceptance of risk, I think on both golf and baseball the answer is yes to a point.

Baseball cannot be played without hard balls flying around at high speed, so when you attend a game you accept that inherent risk simply by attending.

The only applications I can see whereby this does not apply in golf, is if the person intentionally hit you, which in most states could lead to an assault 1 charge, if they did not yell "fore" which would open them up to civil liability or if the golf course did not include a bell or any kind of warning device in a place where the tee box is clearly out of sight of the green, which could open the golf course to civil liability.

However every case is going to be different, if you dont even bother looking to see if anyone is there then after realizing your hitting into someone, yell fore... you could be liable.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

You get a receipt when you pay your green fees at any course I play, and that is your ticket to play.  That is the ticket I require as a starter to let you on the first tee.  Without it you don't tee off.  I don't see that as any different from a baseball ticket.

So what does it say on the ticket?  That's the difference.  And it depends on the circumstances.  Does the ticket get attached to the cart by the staff of the course.  Did the player get to read the ticket?

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It doesn't matter the ticket is a reminder, not an agreement. The agreement is assumed. When you go to a baseball game they post those signs, however even if they didn't a fan would have no legal recourse for injury sustained form a foul ball most of the time.

When you do something, driving, going to a baseball game, rock climbing, sky diving ect. ect. ect. weather or not you sign a release or view a warning sign agree that you are taking a risk and so long as there is no negligence or mal intent, if something happens you have no legal recourse.

Negligence is obviously loosely defined on purpose so that a judge can decide what constitutes negligence.

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Very good and you're absolutely correct.  You don't however assume liability for people who knowingly put you in danger or through gross negligence harm you.  No matter where you are, golf course or ball game or home, you have a right to expect people to behave reasonably with respect to not harming others.  So some of the posts here that advocate hitting over head of the idiot that wanders into "your fairway" and doesn't seem to acknowledge your need to tee off are asking for a lawsuit that can change their lives for sure.

Having said that, again, I'll add the course also has some liability to maintain order on the course.  I think that is clear with respect to the sale of liquor on the course premises. You can not knowingly allow a bunch of drunks to roll around a golf course with deadly weapons in their hands.  But the course also has a responsibility with control of its' customers other than drinking.  If you complain about a group hitting into your group and the course doesn't respond to that complaint they too are assuming some liability if someone gets hurt.

So the answer is we are all responsible for our actions and we don't have a right to harm someone because they annoy us.  We have a lot of rights in the USA but one of them is not to never be annoyed with someone else's behavior on or off the golf course (probably a good grill room topic)

Originally Posted by mikelegacy

Golf courses should be play at your own risk in my opinion and you shouldn't be liable if you hit someone accidentally as long as you are following proper etiquette.



Butch

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Same as cricket matches in the UK, we use a solid red leather ball that is solid as concrete, and spectators on all areas of the ground are within possible reach of the ball, but everyone attends the game knowing there is a chance the ball "could" hit them,

I saw three or four people get hit in the recent england v india test, none of them went off crying trying to sue, in fact they loved the TV time!!!

The whole where theres blame theres a claim thing is what fuels all this sort of debate, the errant fear of hurting somebody either intentionally or accidentally both carry the same potential consequences or law suite,

The was a story a few weeks ago of an england cricketer being dismissed and in his anger in the dressing room he threw his bat towards a random stack of them, the handle bounce off the window pane smashing it, which fell to the floor and cut a womans hand,..........he apologised, she accepted, end of

if only the world was like that hey?

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Originally Posted by LankyLefty

It doesn't matter the ticket is a reminder, not an agreement. The agreement is assumed. When you go to a baseball game they post those signs, however even if they didn't a fan would have no legal recourse for injury sustained form a foul ball most of the time.

When you do something, driving, going to a baseball game, rock climbing, sky diving ect. ect. ect. weather or not you sign a release or view a warning sign agree that you are taking a risk and so long as there is no negligence or mal intent, if something happens you have no legal recourse.

Negligence is obviously loosely defined on purpose so that a judge can decide what constitutes negligence.


On the contrary. There was a lawsuit and the plaintiff won. He was standing in line at a concession and got hit by a foul ball. The court ruled the area wasn't protected for people to be aware or were watching play.

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Originally Posted by carpediem4300

Same as cricket matches in the UK, we use a solid red leather ball that is solid as concrete, and spectators on all areas of the ground are within possible reach of the ball, but everyone attends the game knowing there is a chance the ball "could" hit them,

I saw three or four people get hit in the recent england v india test, none of them went off crying trying to sue, in fact they loved the TV time!!!

The whole where theres blame theres a claim thing is what fuels all this sort of debate, the errant fear of hurting somebody either intentionally or accidentally both carry the same potential consequences or law suite,

The was a story a few weeks ago of an england cricketer being dismissed and in his anger in the dressing room he threw his bat towards a random stack of them, the handle bounce off the window pane smashing it, which fell to the floor and cut a womans hand,..........he apologised, she accepted, end of

if only the world was like that hey?


Lucky for him it only hit her hand.

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Originally Posted by camper6

On the contrary. There was a lawsuit and the plaintiff won. He was standing in line at a concession and got hit by a foul ball. The court ruled the area wasn't protected for people to be aware or were watching play.


Exactly the ballclub was ruled negligent despite the the supposed agreement from buying a ticket.

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What is a more offensive breach of etiquette: the chat-n-cut, or the upstream???

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Chat-n-Cut....definitely the Chat-n-Cut

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