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Posted

Good read.  Recently I've taken to understand much better the factors of one's swing and how they impact the flight of the ball.  As such, I've really been working at shot shape with my shorter irons mostly, and frankly have been pretty good at it.  Anyhow, as I've started to really develop a proper golf swing, I am also more consistently taking consistent divots with my shots.  Interestingly, I noticed that when I play a cut, my "trench" point slightly to the left of the target line, but the divot will always fly off another 15-20 degrees to the left.  Now it makes sense, at least enough to where I won't worry if it means I'm doing something wrong :)

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  • 5 months later...
Posted

We're talking irons here.

The most telling thing about a divot is whether it STARTS an inch or so to the target side of the ball. Much farther = thin, pull. Much back = fat, push.

Ball, grass, ground. Shows good compression, solid contact.

Face angle and path will determine direction and spin. Divot won't tell much about that.

Craig

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Posted

A good iron divot is about the size of a dollar bill right?

More seriously what is the acceptable size divot for a driver?  1-2 ft?


Posted

Depends on the conditions. If its very dry out, the divot might be smaller. If its wet out, divots might be larger. What i would be concerned about is how the club felt hitting the ground. Was it like the club was slicing through the ground, or was it like club thumped the ground hard.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Posted
Originally Posted by TJBam

A good iron divot is about the size of a dollar bill right?

More seriously what is the acceptable size divot for a driver?  1-2 ft?


Assuming you are ACTUALLY serious, there will be no divot with the driver as the ball is on a tee. No portion of the clubhead will touch the ground in this case.

As to the iron divot the size will vary considerably depending on the player's swing, the desired shot shape, the lie, the condition of the ground, and the club used.

One can observe the pros taking divots on fine shots that look like beaver pelts or mouse hides.

Swing YOUR swing... but with irons contact ball, grass, ground.

Craig

:wilsonstaff: - FG Tour F5
:wilsonstaff: - Fybrid 3W 15*, FY 19.5*, 4H 24*
:wilsonstaff: - FG 51 Tour Blade 4-9
:wilson: - Harmonized 50, 55, 60
Old Master - TZ Putter


Posted
I am more of a sweeper.. spent lot of time trying to get a divot and failed miserably... :-(

Me too - I tried taking divots most of last year .... Seemed to take a really precise ball strike - hit so many thin / bladed shots. I still try to take a mini-divot which at least makes me feel like I'm hitting down on the ball.

John

Fav LT Quote ... "you can talk to a fade, but a hook won't listen"

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Posted

So what I am understanding, for me, is that if I don't take a divot I'm not hitting down on the ball and thus not striking correctly?

KICK THE FLIP!!

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Posted
Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

So what I am understanding, for me, is that if I don't take a divot I'm are not hitting down on the ball and thus not striking correctly?

Yep. You want to hit the ball clean, THEN the ground right in front of the ball.

Ryan M
 
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Posted
Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Assuming you are ACTUALLY serious, there will be no divot with the driver as the ball is on a tee. No portion of the clubhead will touch the ground in this case.

As to the iron divot the size will vary considerably depending on the player's swing, the desired shot shape, the lie, the condition of the ground, and the club used.

One can observe the pros taking divots on fine shots that look like beaver pelts or mouse hides.

Swing YOUR swing... but with irons contact ball, grass, ground.

Hey buddy watch me blast it 315 taking a divot with my driver before accusing me of not being serious.


Posted
Originally Posted by TJBam

Hey buddy watch me blast it 315 taking a divot with my driver before accusing me of not being serious.

Doesn't that go into that "How big is you drive" thread

"I hit the ball so long, that my divot takes out half the tee box, BOOYAAAHH!!!"

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
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Posted
My divots are straight and so are my iron shots. The best feeling in golf to me is on a par 3 teed up and taking a divot that starts directly in front of the tee and is about 6 inches long and the tee stays the ground. Can't imagine not taking a divot with an iron. Though I wish I would stop doing it with my 3 wood even if I do hit it well lol. On a side note I played 81 holes at myrtle beach this weekend and I did notice the ground makes a big difference. In charlotte my divot is more of a splat through the ground where as at the beach I threw a sliver of dirt like pros do. I will miss that feeling until the next time I can get out there and have to feel the resistance in the ground has to be hurting my shots somehow.

James


Posted

Wow, 81 holes in Myrtle!  I am envious.  I don't mind taking a divot, although it is indeed annoying when I do it with a three wood or a hybrid.  If the results are a great shot, I am happy.  That said, there are times when my shot/path/plane/whatever...become so poor that I take an uneven divot that has an obviously deeper groove down the outside.  Usually a 5 iron in my hand, I have to wonder how I can get so upright that I can dig the toe in so deeply.  I have always been guilty of something that occasionally causes me bury the club in the ground, (dipping the left shoulder?) that I even had paint missing on the top of one of my old drivers. Any suggestions?


  • 4 months later...
Posted

I seldomly take divots when I hit decent iron shots. I guess I'm just a hardcore sweeper/afraid of hitting it fat.

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  • 1 month later...
Posted

Hi everyone

I am new to this site so this is my first post so hopefully there will some advice for me.

A little of my history will help you understand my problem

I have recently lost a lot of weight in total just over 100lbs (Iknow that mad) BUT since loseing the weight my swing has gone all over the place with my irons, my driver, fairway woods are very solid both off the tee and the fairway but my iron that is a totally different story.

My ball flight is week to say the least I am prone to hitting a massive slice almost a shank but you know when you hit the shank it rattles your arms my ball flight is just 45 degs off the face sometime high and right sometimes low and right.

It;s the same off the tee to off the fairway on the last few rounds I have started to notice my divots are a strange shape almost like an arrow head pointing straight forwardstarting just about the back of the ball but going to a point its almost as if there is wrist hinge at all so my club face hits the ball wide open.

IS THIS POSSIBLE?

And what can I do? does anyone have any drills to practice to try and get this back on track

Many thanks in advance


Posted
Hi everyone I am new to this site so this is my first post so hopefully there will some advice for me. A little of my history will help you understand my problem I have recently lost a lot of weight in total just over 100lbs (Iknow that mad) BUT since loseing the weight my swing has gone all over the place with my irons, my driver, fairway woods are very solid both off the tee and the fairway but my iron that is a totally different story. My ball flight is week to say the least I am prone to hitting a massive slice almost a shank but you know when you hit the shank it rattles your arms my ball flight is just 45 degs off the face sometime high and right sometimes low and right. It;s the same off the tee to off the fairway on the last few rounds I have started to notice my divots are a strange shape almost like an arrow head pointing straight forwardstarting just about the back of the ball but going to a point its almost as if there is wrist hinge at all so my club face hits the ball wide open. IS THIS POSSIBLE? And what can I do? does anyone have any drills to practice to try and get this back on track Many thanks in advance

Without video it is unlikely that anyone can offer more than boilerplate tips that may or may not have any relevance whatsoever for your swing and issues. Having said that, I recommend you buy some brand new clubs, nice and shiny. :-P

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

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  • 11 months later...
Posted

I have been doing some intense reading here (why I'm in this thread that hasn't been commented on in almost a year). Anyway, I had someone take a side on shot of me on Saturday and I worked out that while my head was still, I was not at all shifting my weight forward in my swing. I thought I was a sweeper but instead I just had a swing which relied on hand eye coordination compensating for poor mechanics. I went to the range today with the intention of getting my weight forward (SK2) and, for the first time in my life I was taking proper divots. When everything went right it felt (and the outcomes were) amazing (for me).

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Note: This thread is 4079 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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  • Posts

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We don't give 10.4 strokes — a 10.4 index player might get 13, 10, 8, or whatever number of whole-number strokes.   The problem with this type of statement is that the "par handicap" could be "7" or "13" or "88" and except for affecting NDB, players competing against each other would have the same difference (except they'd still need to adjust for playing from different tees). Let's say a 10.4 and a 14.7 are playing a 71.5/127 course. Par is 72. (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 11.2 -> 11 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 72 = 16.0 -> 16 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes Instead of 72, plug in 23 because it's your favorite number: (10.4 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 60.2 -> 60 strokes (14.7 * 127/113) + 71.5 - 23 = 65.0 -> 65 strokes -> this player gets 5 strokes They still get the strokes they deserve (5), but we've lost the meaning as players now get 60 strokes off a 10 handicap. Remove the course rating and… you're back at the same problem as we've had where players weren't doing the calculation properly, and we lose the first benefit of "playing to your handicap". An example of that, with a 12.3 index player playing on a 68.7/123 rated par 72 course. Properly: (12.3 * 123/113) + 68.7 - 72 = 10.1 -> 10 strokes Improperly: 12.3 * 123/113 = 13.4 -> 13 strokes If the player plays a "net even par" round of golf, he'll shoot 82 and 85. Here's why this makes sense: WHS: (82 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 12.2 differential Prior: (85 - 68.7) * 113 / 123 = 14.97 -> 15.0 differential The player "played to his handicap" with a net even par round in shooting the 82, which aligns with getting ten strokes, not 13. 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Which were the reasons given to me back in 2017 and 2018 when I talked with some of the people responsible for helping to create the WHS. If the ease of adoption by other countries and regions, then that's a fourth reason. But, I didn't really hear much about it prior to the WHS being instituted. A similar step was also required when players played from different tees, yet this was frequently forgotten. Players used to playing the blue tees would move up to the whites and expect to keep their 13 strokes, and be dismayed and sometimes even angered and argumentative that they would only get 10. This literally makes no sense. There's no more or less rounding than in previous versions. The output of "HI * Slope/113" typically produced a decimal number, the output of "HI * Slope/113 + CR - Par" also produces a decimal number, and the output of "Score * 113/Slope" (which is unchanged) also produces a decimal number. Each are rounded just as they were before. No, Dean is way off base here. Even if you accept that "par is an approximation" (of course difficulty), it's not used as he suggests. A player playing a par-72 that's rated 75 will get more COURSE handicap strokes than a player playing a par-72 that's rated 67, but that makes sense. At the end of the round, their score is processed using the same old formula to get their differential as always. This is about where I start to wonder and worry about Dean's mental faculties at his nearly 80 years of age. It hasn't "gone away" - it's been built-in as he says, and I think it's fairly obvious that this is true. No it is not. It is what I've said above, which is what the USGA and R&A have said it is. I agree that the course rating is the "most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer" (I mean, it's almost exactly the defeinition), and slope determines the relative difficulty between two levels of player. So, which of these formulas incorporates BOTH the CR and the Slope in determining a player's course handicap: a. (HI * Slope/113) + CR - Par b. (HI * Slope/113) Clearly A incorporates "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty" (as well as the measure of the relative difficulty). Dean's favored formula did NOT include "the most accurate measure of the relative difficulty for the scratch golfer". A scratch golfer under Dean's preferred method could shoot an even par round of 72 and see a differential that ranged from +2.7 (75.4/140) to 5.5 (66.3/118) or something. Under the WHS, if they shoot net par, they're going to end up with about a 0.0 differential. No. Again, you could subtract any integer from the Course Rating (which again the WHS ADDS to the calculation in course/playing handicap that the older system did not) and get the same relative course handicaps for all players. Using par just helps it make the most sense to actual golfers. It's an integer… as are the scores we shoot and the pars of the holes we play. The addition of the "CR - Par" has almost no effect on a player's differential. Again, the only affect it would have is when NDB is applied, because there may be a few holes where they'd get a stroke that they do not. And even then, it requires the player to card a triple on that specific hole, and be among their 8 out of 20 counting scores, AND even then if it happens once a round in ALL of the eight rounds, it's about 1 stroke on their index (probably a bit less given that most slopes are > 113). This has nothing to do with "jumping in" and everything to do with the foundational reasons for adding (CR - Par). Dean sees it as "adding par" when he would more accurately see it as adding the Course Rating! Small point of order: this was not shown to be accurate. The 96% applied to all 10 scores almost perfectly offset the dropping of two middle scores. Some players indexes went up a little. Some went down a little. The net change was almost exactly 0. Yes, that's how math works. The change makes MORE sense, again, as a player shooting net par under the WHS has basically "shot their handicap". Shoot below net par and your handicap will likely go down. Shoot above it and it may go up a little (less chance of this than shooting under lowering it, though, of course). So? Half of the players who play a 72.5/72-par course will see their Course Handicap one higher than they had before the system and half will not! Also and again, players who play a course rated 68.7 par-72 will all see their course handicaps drop several strokes. That's just math, and the boundaries of rounding. Dean chose a 0.5 marker, but the same math is true at any level, because the HI already has a decimal, and the Slope/113 multiplier also tends to produce decimals. So, someone who previously had a 10.5 to 10.9 index will still be an 11, while the 10.0s to 10.4s will go up to 11s. But on another course where the decimals work out to 0.3 and 0.2… the same math applies. And on a course where the decimals work out to 0.8… players half of the players will get an "extra" stroke and half will not. This is just rounding. It's always been a part of the WHS. The point at which rounding occurs might move slightly (depending on the course and index in question) for half of the situations, but if you have a 10.0 and an 11.5… or a 10.5 and an 12.0… half of the time the higher handicapper will get the "extra" stroke, and half the time the lower handicapper will get the "extra" stroke. This is just how rounding works. Handicaps in match play are almost entirely unaffected. A 13 playing a 10 might now be a 10 playing a 7, but the difference is still the same size. You're subtracting out a constant (CR - Par) from both players. The (HI * Slope/113) remains the same. This makes no sense and Dean has absolutely failed to provide any basis for this "less accurate" while ignoring that the WHS ADDS the CR to the course handicap calculation. It is easier. Shoot net par and you've "played to your handicap." Yes, and what they say is both accurate and makes sense. The WHS method bakes in the "playing from different tees" and makes it easier to know what it takes to "play to your handicap." Those are my notes right up until "The Par Pitfall." Dean has yet to make a valid point in any of this blog post thus far. When I have the time, and feel like procrastinating a bit more like today, I'll continue with my response to this blog post. I respect what Dean did in creating the original handicap system and the course ratinga system. The course rating system is one of the most elegant solutions to a very complex problem that I have ever seen. Nothing done by the WHS changes that. The course rating system is relatively unchanged, and its application in the WHS is, again, MORE accurate by the inclusion of the Course Rating than the previous system, in addition to the other benefits. Dean deserves (and has been given) much credit for that. But, if this is how he thinks these days, Dean can remain Pope Emeritus but the Cardinals need to elect a new Pope.
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