Weight Forward and Secondary Axis Tilt

[iacas]

Let me know what you think of this video:

Related threads: http://thesandtrap.com/t/29616/the-biggest-secret-slide-your-hips

[mvmac]

This is freaky. This is EXACTLY what I was telling my guest today when I was explaining what we mean when we say weight forward. And how this shallows everything out. Low point is forward, weight is forward, hands are forward to hit the ball high. He hit is low and I told him he does that because his weight is back, handle is back, low point is somewhere around his right foot. Very happy you made this video, thanks:-) Just want to note that some good players can get the head too far behind, tipping it back, on the downswing. These are the good players that misses are over draws and big pushes. Brett Wetterich comes to mind. The mid to higher handicappers are moving the head forward, lack of 2nd axis tilt. The highest and farthest I've ever seen anyone hit it is Troy Matteson, check out how he set ups, weight forward, hands forward, plenty of 2nd axis tilt. On the 12th hole at Torrey Pines he hit a 6-iron out of the right bunker, close the lip, 190 yards. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoFpxle3SFU&feature;=related[/VIDEO]

[jamo]

I liked it. It might be interesting to see something about false secondary axis tilt vs. real secondary axis tilt. That seems to come up a lot too. And this time, the Mail.app tone didn't go off. :-P (It went off around 5:10 in your last video and must have been recorded, I thought it was from my computer.)

[uttexas]

Great video. I know you explained what the ball flight on the left vs right would look like, but a frame or graphic showing the resultant flights left vs right would really hammer the point for those that might be hearing phrases like "secondary axis tilt" for the first time.

[Zeph]

Right on cue! Pretty much what I'm struggling with these days. I don't get the hips far enough forward, that's one thing, but at the same time, my upper body is moving forward. Even if I do get the hips forward, I'll never get any secondary axis tilt.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by mvmac

. . this video . . . Troy Matteson[if IE]>

[iacas]

Originally Posted by uttexas

Great video. I know you explained what the ball flight on the left vs right would look like, but a frame or graphic showing the resultant flights left vs right would really hammer the point for those that might be hearing phrases like "secondary axis tilt" for the first time.

That'd be a little difficult. In the extreme cases it's not too bad, but you can hit the ball pretty high with shaft lean and you can hit the ball low with lack of shaft lean, as Mike said. Impact dynamics are a weird system. The release rate of the club - how quickly the club is "laying back" - can have a huge effect, for example.

One thing I wish I had added to the video... as extreme as the "lean left with your head" swing looks, that's effectively what golfers who move the ball back in their stance are accomplishing. They're flipping, so they move the ball back so far they can't possibly have the clubhead ascending at impact, and they get no secondary tilt and the club just plows into the ground.

[Mr. Desmond]

Okay -- I was doing some of the exercises on golf evolution - head against side of wall, slide hips forward, pretend boulder is in hands and you are throwing it....

I must have been doing something wrong -- because I got a lot of heavy shots on the range after these exercises (and at a fitting). Or are these exercises an exaggeration?

What's this got to do with the video?

The video on the right, although I assume the secondary tilt is somewhat exaggerated (correct?), looks almost like a traditional swing position, as opposed to S&T.; And I think that's the position I looked liked when I was hitting heavy shots -- head back, sternum of chest back, too much tilt, etc.

So I get out there yesterday on the range after re-reading S&T; troubleshooting from the book, and have less exaggeration of the slide and voila, results are better.... although when I did not shallow out with the butt, I did pick up a few beaver pelts.

I guess to clarify matters, unless the videos have confused me, I'd have an additional video -- the one on the right, and the actual positions condoned by S&T; on the left.

[uttexas]

Pause the Troy Matteson video at :17. I'd say that's a good impact position Rx. You don't want to actually thrust your head back going into impact (this would move the upper center back=fat shot). For some people, feeling a thrusting of the head back might actually keeps their heads centered. You want a centered head throughout the swing including at impact and hips forward at impact. The feeling to achieve these positions can vary. For any individual's case, a FO video would help clarify.

[mvmac]

If the Matteson video is an example of what people refer to by sliding hips forward the first video makes sense, but it sounds as if it's an active motion during the swing. Matteson isn't exactly driving his hips forward in this video. They're forward at address then don't move much during the swing. In a screen capture at impact they appear driven forward, but other than the slight hip bump every decent player does, his lower body is relatively quiet from address through impact. Is this the point?

Yes, like you said, they are more forward at set-up so have less to go forward.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

The video on the right, although I assume the secondary tilt is somewhat exaggerated (correct?), looks almost like a traditional swing position, as opposed to S&T.; And I think that's the position I looked liked when I was hitting heavy shots -- head back, sternum of chest back, too much tilt, etc.

It's both. S&T; is not as different as people continue to think it is. :-)

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

So I get out there yesterday on the range after re-reading S&T; troubleshooting from the book, and have less exaggeration of the slide and voila, results are better.... although when I did not shallow out with the butt, I did pick up a few beaver pelts.

The thing is this: I'd bet dollars to cents (that's how that phrase goes right?) that your head was moving backwards. I doubt you were achieving quite as much forward hip slide as you thought, and you were dropping your head back slightly (because the differential between your head and hips would feel like your hips moved forward "more"). Some people slide their hips forward enough already. It's really just a few inches. Some better players almost keep them sliding forward too long.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yes, like you said, they are more forward at set-up so have less to go forward.

Yep. They still go forward from the top. Just not as much because of what Mike and you said.

[Mr. Desmond]

Thanks, Eric.

The truth to my swing is probably somewhere in between - I'm sure my head was moving back on some swings, I'm sure as I over-slid the hips, my head moved backwards. I'm certain after reading the S&T; book again, that my address position had secondary tilt already in it -- which made it worse as the swing progressed.

And I'm certain that I must get un-lazy and carry the tripod for my camera to the range.

Thanks.

[bunkerputt]

That's funny that you post that because I've had both of those swings in the last few weeks, as Mike has been kind enough to help me with.  Not intending to threadjack here, but this is what it looked like for me (a rank amateur) without the exaggeration in a real swing, to help those struggling discern the more subtle difference.  Put your mouse on my head and watch where it moves on the downswing.  You'll notice that in the top video where my upper body is moving forward, the head moves out in front of the ball before impact with a more gradual move to vertical in the follow through.  In the bottom video, where I'm working on keeping the head centered through impact, there is a much later and quicker snap of the head in the finish .  Note that I'm still cleaning up a lot of things, but the hip and leg action are very similar to what I'm doing today:

Video on the left, upper center too far forward, attack angle too steep, launch too low, divots monstrous:

Video on the right, head back, hips forward, divots and approach shallowed:

I played a few rounds with the top swing and I didn't have a lot of trouble hitting the ball online, but I had a tremendously difficult time with distance control.  Shots would start off extremely low with tons of spin and balloon like crazy with a ton of hiss.  Swing on the bottom produces a flight that starts off medium-ish, just kind of floats for a bit and sinks with a lot more distance.

Note that the bottom video looks "classic", but actually I was just implementing Mike's "S&T; advice".  I tend more towards thinking the dichotomy is false between the two.

[Mr. Desmond]

I've dusted off the one training aid that works -- the SwingHat -- it beeps with certain head movement

[JetFan1983]

Secondary Axis tilt has been one of my holy grail secrets. Whenever someone posts a swing of themselves on here, they almost never have enough of this (and of course, this is just another way of saying that most people don't pushes their hips forward enough). I remember first researching it about a year ago and reading a quote from Lynn Blake: "If you don't have any, not much else matters."

I'm really happy to see this thread. Now I can just link to this whenever I help people with their "My Swing" threads.

The beginning of fixing it didn't occur until lessons though. I knew of the concept and felt I had studied it quite extensively, re-reading this section of TGM until I understood it, as well through the S&T; book. Lessons though helped me nail down the correct "feels." Just speaking for myself here, but the information alone couldn't help me...mainly because I have no talent, but if people are struggling with this one, you could try my route: Lessons. If the teacher just looks at you with a clueless "what's axis tilt," then you know the deal pretty quickly. If he knows what it is, then that's a pretty good sign.

And also, just one last thought that I always found interesting. The longest hitters always have the most axis tilt. The shortest ones always have the least amount...

EDIT: And one last side-note: I took my body building obsessed friend out to the range a few weeks ago. He had never played golf before. Sure, he had tried it a few times over the years, but he had never really "played it" if you get what I'm saying. The guy could hit nothing. Nothing! He hated golf. Always had. Every shot he said was a slice that went no where. I told him I could help him. After explaining the kinetic sequence to him for about 20 minutes, how the hips create the axis tilt, how the longest hitters have the most of this, how he has to palmar flex or feel bowing in his wrist to not flip his hands through....he hit a couple balls. His second ball with a 9-iron was a slight draw that flew about 165 yards. It just took him two freakin' swings!

He said to me, "Ok, now I know why you like this game so much."

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

He said to me, "Ok, now I know why you like this game so much."

That used to be me.  Next thing you know, he's going to try to get his arms smaller so he can swing them faster.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

He said to me, "Ok, now I know why you like this game so much."

That used to be me.  Next thing you know, he's going to try to get his arms smaller so he can swing them faster.

Me too, but for different reasons (I'm assuming  you're talking about what hooked you with the game, not a serious 10+ year dedication to body building, which I haven't done, even though I do work out). If I didn't get lucky as hell and hit a straight shot that went about 130 yards with a rented 7-iron on the first day I tried to hit balls at the range, I may never have gotten hooked by the game. All it takes is that one lucky shot of solid contact to hook someone.

I was shocked my friend got it in just two swings. Even now, we'll be out somewhere with friends and he'll just say to me "two swings" randomly and I'll chuckle and say back "two swings." Kind of like a cute little inside joke between us.

It was a lucky shot obviously. He struggled for the rest of the range session, but he did hit four or five draws that day. For me, even with a Stack and Tilt instructor -- someone waaaaay more experienced and smarter than me -- it took me a whole 90 minute lesson + a full two hours of range work on my own to hit my very first intentional slight draw with a penetrating ball flight. So this "two swings" thing for my friend clearly isn't the norm.

I'm sure if he continued to play a lot (he doesn't really and his complete disregard for etiquette means I won't be inviting to play on a course anytime soon) he'd start hitting over-the-top-pull-hooks soon with the info I gave him, in which case, I'd have to go over the part about side-tilt, axis tilt, more weight forward again (I really banged the palmar flexion/wrist bowing drum the most that day). But that was a pretty good day for me. Made me feel pretty good about the information.

And for a big guy with stupidly big arms, he has decent flexibility still. But yea, he's probably too much of a beef cake to play this game really well (not practicing much hurts his cause the most of course though) (another side-note, please don't quote this and start a tangent about body building. We can just start another thread in the Fitness section).

Anyway, sorry for getting side-tracked with this thread, but it was critical for him to know that he couldn't shift his upper body forward on the downswing, which led to a bigger flip, a bigger block-type slice, and a very erratic low point. "Wow, so the wrist really just has to stay flat like this? No wonder this game is so hard."

It also sucks he already can hit a 9-iron farther than me, assuming he even makes contact, which he of course, doesn't most of the time.

OK, back to the secondary axis tilt discussion.

The ability to understand the hip side is the first part to creating the secondary axis tilt. From there, this allows the trail shoulder to turn on plane. Then I feel like this is what allows the elbows to stay closer together a bit more naturally, which in turn, leads to more natural wrist cock on the downswing. This then leads to making it easier to not flip the club through impact because you're not running out of right arm as quickly as before. I'm not say you won't flip every again -- I obviously do it too much still -- but I think this gives you a much higher chance of not flipping the club and learning how to keep your arms much straighter through the follow-through.

For me, and I think for a lot of others out there, understanding what axis tilt is can really help a golfer have the correct sequencing on the downswing.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Video on the left, upper center too far forward, attack angle too steep, launch too low, divots monstrous:

Video on the right, head back, hips forward, divots and approach shallowed:

+1

The divot is a good indication for me too. I get craters when I'm doing it wrong. When the divot is shallow, I know I'm getting the weight forward and the axis tilt I need to get the proper approach angle into impact. Since I don't always use my camera when practicing, this evidence alone is enough for me to confirm my feels.