Weight Forward and Secondary Axis Tilt

[mchepp]

Clearly you have exaggerated the swing on the left, but I think there is a teaching opportunity regarding COG movement during the swing. The guy on the right is likely hitting it higher, but the guy on the left sans the extreme you have taken it too could just be a guy who wants to hit it lower, with likely a fade. He is also likely to extract himself from the rough a bit better because his angle of attack is so severe.

My point is I would have loved this discussion to be about COG movement and how it relates to ball flight rather than saying this is bad this is good.

My $0.02

[JetFan1983]

In regards to the guy on the left in the OP video, I feel like the two most likely ball flights are either a block type shot or a hook. The weight and handle are too far forward, so that encourages those kinds of ball flights, depending on where the face is pointing (as well as a couple other factors) I think.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Clearly you have exaggerated the swing on the left, but I think there is a teaching opportunity regarding COG movement during the swing. The guy on the right is likely hitting it higher, but the guy on the left sans the extreme you have taken it too could just be a guy who wants to hit it lower, with likely a fade. He is also likely to extract himself from the rough a bit better because his angle of attack is so severe.

My point is I would have loved this discussion to be about COG movement and how it relates to ball flight rather than saying this is bad this is good.

My $0.02

I think your point is somewhat valid, but you have to keep in mind that whenever people say "do this, don't do this" in the golf swing, they are focused on helping you build a stock shot swing.  If you built the green swing on the right as your standard swing, you could just move the ball back, make the same swing and come in steeper, hitting it lower.  If the red swing on the left was your standard, you'd be hitting low balooning fades and losing 20 yards from the fairway.  Given that the swing on the right can produce nice shots from both the fairway and rough, but the swing on the left only excels in the rough, I'd say Erik is pretty safe in his recommendation.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

My point is I would have loved this discussion to be about COG movement and how it relates to ball flight rather than saying this is bad this is good.

I normally like just about everything you say, but I disagree on this one. I think it did teach people things - and more than "this is bad, this is good." Perhaps because you understand the material well enough it was obvious to you, so you didn't learn anything you didn't already know, but I think others learned from this video.

And I hear what you're saying, but quite honestly the "hit down more sharply" concept seems to me to be even more basic than the video I made. Move the ball back and you hit down more, typically. Move it up more and you shallow it more. I think that's fairly basic. Maybe I'm wrong. I agree that a video on CG location could explore the area more - the both of us can hit a low shot with the ball off our left foot if we slide both CGs forward.

In other words, I think you want a different video. I may make it some time, but this video is still a valid video, I think. Or I hope so, anyway.

The one thing I wish I'd done was to show someone not sliding their hips forward and "running out of right arm" because you'd see someone with very level shoulders. That, however, sounds like another video altogether. One that I can tie in to elbow positions (pitch, punch, push).

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by iacas

The one thing I wish I'd done was to show someone not sliding their hips forward and "running out of right arm" because you'd see someone with very level shoulders. That, however, sounds like another video altogether. One that I can tie in to elbow positions (pitch, punch, push).

I agree that this topic is great for a video. I think running out of right arm is very misunderstood. It seems like term professionals use and there is often very little explanation that accompanies it.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I think your point is somewhat valid, but you have to keep in mind that whenever people say "do this, don't do this" in the golf swing, they are focused on helping you build a stock shot swing.  If you built the green swing on the right as your standard swing, you could just move the ball back, make the same swing and come in steeper, hitting it lower.  If the red swing on the left was your standard, you'd be hitting low balooning fades and losing 20 yards from the fairway.  Given that the swing on the right can produce nice shots from both the fairway and rough, but the swing on the left only excels in the rough, I'd say Erik is pretty safe in his recommendation.

Yes the swing on the left "as is" would be a disaster. That is because the model there is extreme. My point is if we back that off, the lesson could be about how moving the COG around allows for different ball flights in the same way as you saying moving the ball position does the same thing.

I see now after reading iacas post, he is right, I feel that secondary axis tilt has been covered before, but COG movement and how it affects ball flight has not.

I want to also add that I feel it is still a good video if a golfer wants to understand how to hit it high and far. To often people just hear the weight forward and miss the axis tilt part. So please don't misunderstand my comments as I didn't like the video.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

I agree that this topic is great for a video. I think running out of right arm is very misunderstood. It seems like term professionals use and there is often very little explanation that accompanies it.

I shall do a video on that topic, then. Thanks.

Originally Posted by mchepp

I see now after reading iacas post, he is right, I feel that secondary axis tilt has been covered before, but COG movement and how it affects ball flight has not.

I want to also add that I feel it is still a good video if a golfer wants to understand how to hit it high and far. To often people just hear the weight forward and miss the axis tilt part. So please don't misunderstand my comments as I didn't like the video.

I don't think anyone took it that way. I didn't, anyway. I do think the CG movement is a good way to handle ball flights. There are of course other things to handle ball flights too, but perhaps a video showing the top three things might be good - CG location relative to ball position, shaft lean (might almost be the same as the previous one, so maybe face angle instead), and "jumping" versus staying in flexion.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by iacas

I do think the CG movement is a good way to handle ball flights. There are of course other things to handle ball flights too, but perhaps a video showing the top three things might be good - CG location relative to ball position, shaft lean (might almost be the same as the previous one, so maybe face angle instead), and "jumping" versus staying in flexion.

I like this video idea.

[Righty to Lefty]

I have learned more valuable information in the past month on here than I have at any point in my golf life.  Stuff that is game changing information one you understand it and free yourself to apply it.  For me understanding the D Plane, Ball Flight Laws, addressing the ball near the hosel, and this video have meant more to my game than anything I "thought" I knew in the previous 5 years.  Engraing and knowing the proper fundamentals are the framework that must be built before any underlying talent can be exposed.  Great stuff man!

[colin007]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

addressing the ball near the hosel,

where/what is this info?

[Righty to Lefty]

Here you go...this was some of the important information that changed my golfing life.

http://wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid;=178&func;=view&catid;=25&id;=21296

Originally Posted by colin007

where/what is this info?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

I have learned more valuable information in the past month on here than I have at any point in my golf life.  Stuff that is game changing information one you understand it and free yourself to apply it.  For me understanding the D Plane, Ball Flight Laws, addressing the ball near the hosel, and this video have meant more to my game than anything I "thought" I knew in the previous 5 years.  Engraing and knowing the proper fundamentals are the framework that must be built before any underlying talent can be exposed.  Great stuff man!

Yes, you may be addressing it near the hosel but at impact it's probably in the center if you're liking the results.

[Righty to Lefty]

Absolutely I have found the center of the clubface much more often !! This tip has been been game changing for me because it has made me aware of the difference between the address position, and the swing under force at impact, and how to compensate for it because where the club is at address is not the same place it will be at impact if compensations aren't made.  Once I learned to do this then I stopped dipping so much in my downswing (which is the only way to account for addressing the ball in the middle of the clubface, otherwise the impact will be out towards the toe) and I maintain my spine angle much more affectively now.

Originally Posted by mvmac ou

Yes, you may be addressing it near the hosel but at impact it's probably in the center if you're liking the results.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

addressing the ball near the hosel

Really???? Not hating here, just really suprised. With the driver I address the ball with the toe, irons I center it. Mind you, I suck.

[Righty to Lefty]

You can do that if you chose, but in order for you to make center contact you MUST make some manipulations to hit the ball in the center of the face.  The common manipulation is to dip like Tiger used to do really badly.  Really though it won't seem so far fetched if you just imagine looking at a golfer down the line at address, and then at impact, and realize that the left shoulder of the golfer for a righty is pointing well left of where it was at address.  Since the left arm is the lever the the club is attached to, and the left shoulder had changed position, the club will not return to the exact point it was at address.  If you address the ball at the toe the only way to make center contact is to dip, which changes your spine angle and is incredibly inconsistent because some days you might dip more or less, then you will have created the length necessary to make center contact.   That is unless you generate so much down force in your swing that your arms literally get longer as you swing!!!

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Really???? Not hating here, just really suprised. With the driver I address the ball with the toe, irons I center it. Mind you, I suck.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

You can do that if you chose, but in order for you to make center contact you MUST make some manipulations to hit the ball in the center of the face.  The common manipulation is to dip like Tiger used to do really badly.  Really though it won't seem so far fetched if you just imagine looking at a golfer down the line at address, and then at impact, and realize that the left shoulder of the golfer for a righty is pointing well left of where it was at address.  Since the left arm is the lever the the club is attached to, and the left shoulder had changed position, the club will not return to the exact point it was at address.  If you address the ball at the toe the only way to make center contact is to dip, which changes your spine angle and is incredibly inconsistent because some days you might dip more or less, then you will have created the length necessary to make center contact.   That is unless you generate so much down force in your swing that your arms literally get longer as you swing!!!

I would file this in the whatever works category. Many guys set up off the toe, Vijay used to set up off the heel, and then there are guys like Moe who had the clubhead 12-18" behind the ball. This is like grip or posture where everyone is slightly different.

[dawnRwright]

Nice video. I was not aware or shall we say i don't understand about this secondary axis tilt before I watched the video. But, great that something like this video has shown up.

thanks.

[Righty to Lefty]

I never said that one way was right or wrong but knowing what is actually happening during a swing is very important because knowing what is actually happening.  To maintain spine angle as closely as possible the ball has to be closer to the hosel or center impact will not be likely unless compensations are made through trial and error.  I place the clubhead 18 inches behind the ball because it is a great way to keep myself from opening my shoulders at address but before I move the clubhead away I address the ball at the hosel.

Originally Posted by mchepp

I would file this in the whatever works category. Many guys set up off the toe, Vijay used to set up off the heel, and then there are guys like Moe who had the clubhead 12-18" behind the ball. This is like grip or posture where everyone is slightly different.