Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

[boil3rmak3r]

I think my question is relevant to this post... I have been struggling with starting the ball too far out to the right. In trying to figure this out, I noticed that my right elbow and arm extend out toward the target through the hitting zone. Today I tried to do practice swings and hit balls while trying to keep my right elbow closer to my body through the hitting zone and have my right elbow/arm arc around my body. It flattened my follow through and video showed that it made my follow through path more in line with my downswing path. Other than hitting into a net, I haven't taken this to the range to see how I hit the ball when trying to do this. Anyway, can firing the right elbow out from the body and toward the target in the hitting zone cause pushes? If so, is the feel I describe above a good start to try to correct this??

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

I think my question is relevant to this post...

I have been struggling with starting the ball too far out to the right. In trying to figure this out, I noticed that my right elbow and arm extend out toward the target through the hitting zone. Today I tried to do practice swings and hit balls while trying to keep my right elbow closer to my body through the hitting zone and have my right elbow/arm arc around my body. It flattened my follow through and video showed that it made my follow through path more in line with my downswing path. Other than hitting into a net, I haven't taken this to the range to see how I hit the ball when trying to do this.

Anyway, can firing the right elbow out from the body and toward the target in the hitting zone cause pushes? If so, is the feel I describe above a good start to try to correct this??

There are some players that "run out of right arm" that hit pulls or that can hit pushes, just depends on how you compensate.  With the shots starting out too far to the right all we know is that the face is aimed too far right at impact and the path is matching up with the face (assuming these are straight pushes).  Without seeing your swing it's tough to say whether it's the right elbow or something else.

[JetFan1983]

OK, so I'm getting the sense here that's okay to counter-roll (load no.3, turning watch to the sky) in the transition if one's shaft plane is nicely steep on the backswing (Bubba, Rickie F, Sergio style). This is a good way to steep-to-shallow it out?

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

OK, so I'm getting the sense here that's okay to counter-roll (load no.3, turning watch to the sky) in the transition if one's shaft plane is nicely steep on the backswing (Bubba, Rickie F, Sergio style). This is a good way to steep-to-shallow it out?

Actually nevermind. I feel the OP answered this to an extent and it's probably not relevant enough to the thread -- this is better left for an instructor to answer in person because I think the answer here probably starts with "it depends."

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

OK, so I'm getting the sense here that's okay to counter-roll (load no.3, turning watch to the sky) in the transition if one's shaft plane is nicely steep on the backswing (Bubba, Rickie F, Sergio style). This is a good way to steep-to-shallow it out?

Yes.

Generally speaking, yes.

Sorry, no "it depends" here. Generally speaking, yes. :)

[JetFan1983]

Thanks, Erik! Okay, good. Then this confirms I wasn't thinking crazy thoughts earlier this morning ... except for the ones about the aliens.

The golf truth is out there...

...on thesandtrap!

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

This thread seems mostly about the right elbow.   Lately I've been worrying about the left one.

You remember where in Five Lessons Hogan talks about pointing the elbows backward and inside of the elbows forward?   That diagram where the arms are bound together in front with bands?    Like probably most of us I tried that a little and then quit thinking about it.   What difference does it make?   Isn't it better to just relax the arms and take a natural elbow position as opposed to a stiff unnatural one?

Lately I've come back to that part of Hogan's book.   Here's why.

Consider what is called a "strong grip."   It is used as a "fix" for slicing because if one's clubface is open at the time of ball contact, a "stronger grip" can be a patch for that.   Well, I think left elbow position can also be a reason why the clubface is open at contact.   I also think that if one is careless with elbow position in taking a "strong grip," the clubface will be open at ball contact for that reason alone, that it promotes slicing the clubhead across the ball.

A "strong grip" should not be taken when the left elbow points outward instead of back.  That compounds the problem.

There are two reasons why the left elbow tends to point out at address.   (1) it enables a longer appearing backswing because the elbow can bend along the plane of the swing = a sort of "cheat move.   (2) It seems more natural especially to those involved in athletics.

To illustrate #2, think of how we do bench presses or ride a mountain bike, elbows outward.   Or in boxing or MMA.   Keeping our elbows outward in a sport reinforces the musculature for keeping elbows outward and makes a position that Hogan recommended all the harder and less natural.

(The shoulder like the hip is very flexible.   I'm talking about the position of the humerus and how it moves with regard to the rest of the shoulder complex.)

My hypothesis is that when your left elbow points a bit outward, and especially when combined with a "strong grip," the result is a tendency to cut across the ball with an open clubface and to inhibit full release.   Why?  Because (1) it's harder to release through a left arm that is in an elbow out position, and (2) if the left elbow points somewhat outward, release takes the arms into a large radius on the follow through that creates a swing that looks like an ellipse and stresses the back.

This is related to another hypothesis of mine that the "strong grip" restricts movement of the left forearm and inhibits release, that it is appropriate for those with weak forearms and to treat RSI.

As I say this is a hypothesis for testing and not dogma.    It's what I'm currently working on in my own swing.   Critiques?

[saevel25]

Its a bit more than that. If you hold a club at impact, you can rotate your left forearm slightly and keep the same face angle. The reason is your wrist has two bones forming the joint, and they give you some rotation movement with out effecting the hands. This would be when you bow your left wrist out at impact. Think Dustin Johnson.

the right elbow is different because the wrist is cocked, so if you try to turn the right elbow over, then the hands will turn over.

so you can play at address with different grips and keep the same angles with the elbows.

Yes there is a tendency for slicers to chicken wing a bit, left elbow sticking outward, instead of breaking down. But that doesn't cause a slice, more its a reaction to a bad swing. I find that as you get closer to the hands, the more reactive those areas are to other problems. For example if you have a reverse weight shift (away from the target), your probably going to flip your wrist, so you can hit the ball. Or if get your elbow stuck behind your body, your going to cut across because there is no other place for it to go, because your body is so far ahead, the elbows and hands have to follow the shoulder turn. This is why when people slice, you can see that there shoulders turn more on a shallower plane. If your shoulder drops down more on a steeper plan, then the arms will drop down, instead of across.

Really the only time you get into trouble with swing path and the hands and elbows is when you are having trouble with Key 4. Like for me, i was nailing my steady head, weight forward, and getting my left wrist flat. But i had a problem directing the clubhead inside. So i have to slowly work on movements in the downswing to do that. This is where i work on my elbow and wrist movements. But i can't really swing though this process in real application because the swing is to damn fast. By the time i start down, no way i can reroute in time to do any good in my golf swing. So i need to develop it so its automatic.

[Hacker James]

so glad you posted this about right elbow. Although I am not supple enough to get parallel at the top without raising right elbow to 90 degrees, at least I noticed that my elbow position is at the seam as you pointed out and is not getting stuck behind. Looked at Furyk's swing, and it looks as if he is really upright, not something I would want to emulate, but it sure works for him. I was getting about 15 more yards after reading your post.  Thank You! (or maybe I am confusing with another thread and video that Mvmac put up.) in any event, thanks to all of you.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Hacker James

so glad you posted this about right elbow. Although I am not supple enough to get parallel at the top

You don't need to be parallel at the top. Why is it important that you get there? In many people it creates a bigger downside than an upside.

[JetFan1983]

Post-Masters thread bump.

This thread continues to be helpful year in and year out.

I'm going with a new feel, straight from James, of feeling like my right elbow and arm stays under and pitchy really throughout my entire swing. I'm thinking Zach Johnson here:

A short, controlled backswing with that right arm under and pitchy. Good feeling for me. I probably should even feel it sort of into my follow-thru, who knows.

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack the thread about my swing or anything (even though I kind of just did). I just wanted to share a (possibly) cool feel with others.

[boogielicious]

That is one of my slow swing practice swing thoughts.  I think more about Jason Dufner's pitch elbow than Johnson's, but this was a good video to post.  Thanks.

[newtogolf]

That's the same feel I use.  I used to pitch in little leagues and practiced the submarine pitch a lot.  I find the feel from that pitch is very close to the swing thoughts I use when practicing.

[JetFan1983]

That's the same feel I use.  I used to pitch in little leagues and practiced the submarine pitch a lot.  I find the feel from that pitch is very close to the swing thoughts I use when practicing.

The submarine pitch is another awesome feel for this too, good reminder. I was actually thinking of it yesterday to be honest. Works pretty perfectly with it.

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It really is amazing how important elbow positioning can be for controlling swing path (punch elbowers notwithstanding). Check out the difference between me and Zach Johnson here:

Zach's elbows are basically "aimed" at the ball, and now the entire arm package can travel outward and diagonally as well.

Meanwhile, check out the idiot on the right (me). The elbows are basically straight up and down. It's no wonder that when I played really badly, I get really steep.

So, gotta feel like that right elbow stays under and pitchy. Submarine throw it.

[scopek]

The submarine pitch is another awesome feel for this too, good reminder. I was actually thinking of it yesterday to be honest. Works pretty perfectly with it.  [rule] It really is amazing how important elbow positioning can be for controlling swing path (punch elbowers notwithstanding). Check out the difference between me and Zach Johnson here: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/96399/] [/URL] Zach's elbows are basically "aimed" at the ball, and now the entire arm package can travel outward and diagonally as well.  Meanwhile, check out the idiot on the right (me). The elbows are basically straight up and down. It's no wonder that when I played really badly, I get really steep.  So, gotta feel like that right elbow stays under and pitchy. Submarine throw it.

I'm curious about the submarine pitch feel you're working with, Where to you feel like you're "throwing" in the pitch? At the ball or target?

[mvmac]

I'm curious about the submarine pitch feel you're working with, Where to you feel like you're "throwing" in the pitch? At the ball or target?

Quick terminology, pitch means that the right arm is externally rotated, Hogan on the left while Jack has a punch elbow. Obviously both can work.

[JetFan1983]

I'm curious about the submarine pitch feel you're working with, Where to you feel like you're "throwing" in the pitch? At the ball or target?

I guess I would say the ball.*

It's more so just a visual, or extreme feel, to emphasize that my elbow and right arm have to travel in a different direction than they currently are now. I'm not sure I would necessarily use the submarine feel on the course, but more so, when taking some practice swings in between shots when on the range.

In Ben Hogan's Five Lessons , he talks about using the feeling of "skipping a rock across a still pond" to teach people to hit the ball better. It's kind of along the same lines of that. I mostly use these as something familiar I can see in my mind's eye, so I can understand the change better.

Like I said above, the primary feel here for me is feeling the right elbow (and arm) "under and pitchy" throughout my swing, even the backswing, like Zach Johnson does. My instructor James wants me to work on this because I can get in bad positions like I shared in that picture of my A5 above.

I mostly bumped the thread because I wanted to include some new feels for the people out there who are also working on this stuff. Since feel is different for everyone, you kind of have to experiment with it and then check to see if the picture changes or not. Erik provided a bunch of good feel options in the OP, so I was just adding one or two for the community, like @newtogolf did.

*I know Colin Montgomery said to swing "through" the ball, not "at it," but in this case, I think the situations are different as, well, both are really just feelings anyway, and not 100% real.

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Just noticed @mvmac replied. Agreed. Both can work.

[mvmac]

I guess I would say the ball.*

Just noticed @mvmac replied. Agreed. Both can work.

Yes I think the "skipping" can be a good feel.

Both can work but even guys that are in punch won't have the rear elbow above the lead at A5, so yeah keep working on that