Stack and Tilt??? Is it a hoax????

[outlaw1984]

I fully understand that theres a Stack and Tilt thread out there but i wanna start this one to get some answers...

I know its Thanksgiving and we should be giving thanks and stuffing our face but i really feel like bringing up a few questions.....

Again im a beginner have been playing forn 5 months or so.....yet i have read like 10 instructional books such as Golf My Way, How I Play Golf, Leadbetter, Five Lessons, Talked personally to Shawn Clement, and have his dvd instructional series....and yes they all differ....they differ in grip, posture, backswing, downswing, and so on i could on for days on how they differ. I'm still not convinced to switch to stack and tilt though...although i have played around 50 times this year and ive lost like 1000 balls.....i still have that feeling that s&t; is a last resort for someone that cannot play the game well, is this true????

if this was the correct method why didnt Hogan write this book 50 years ago.....im not saying that i dont respect Plummer and Bennett for teaching this method.....but is it just a fad....i tried to pull up reviews on the net and i found a site called perfectgolfswingreview.net and he said that the stack and tilt isnt biometrically correct, that it will put pressure on your spine and soon give you back problems...althought i know that Plummer and Bennett havent had one of there students be out for injury, but take 2-3 times a week golfer...will it cause problems for him?

Someone who has adopted this swing trying to tell me the advantages of this swing and disadvantages also....

why didnt plummer and bennett cover the grip or the posture or none of the so called traditional fundamentals???

if stack and tilt is a hoax then who should someone follow?????

Again sorry to start another topic on this but i wanted to try to get some answers...

Thanks

[poser]

To be honest they have some great things they teach in their method.  As for the back pain thing that is total bullshit.  I had back surgery last year and I can tell you it feels alot better to go into extension instead of staying in flexion. As for these fundamentals?  Go to a pga tour or nationwide event and look at all the different stances, posture, and grips.  The only fundamental in golf is impact and thats what they focus on.  Hell a guy on the nationwide plays crosshanded but, what he has in common with other great players is a good impact position.

I really love their method especially with new golfers.  The hands in, left shoulder down, and sliding the hips are all great ways to combat the usual over the top swings most people have.

They have been a little wishy washy on their concepts and methods but, that could just be the evolution of their pattern.

[michaeljames92]

Its a push draw pattern. I completely changed my game after employing the basic moves of the pattern. I dropped from a 9 to a 3 in 6 months. It maintains staying centred over the ball which allows you keep your swing bottom in the same spot, instead of moving your centres and having to time your weight shift back to the ball. Therefore by controlling what spot you hit the ground every time, it not only stops you hitting fat and thin shots (when done correctly), it also allows your ball curvature to be consistent with each shot, something which a 'traditional' swing never allowed me to do. Sure you can play great golf with a weight shift off the ball, but for me consistency was what I needed.

[JetFan1983]

In this link , Mike and Andy directly respond to all the popular criticisms of Stack and Tilt.

I highly suggest you get your Stack and Tilt information from actual Stack and Tilt people... not from people who know nothing about it. Anyone who calls it a hoax immediately exposes their lack of knowledge on the subject. I put people who say Stack and Tilt is a hoax on the same level as people who used to think the world was flat.

I also suggest you purchase the book.

You can start by getting free information on it from this website or the Stack and Tilt Academy Youtube page or the Golf Evolution Youtube Page.

Here are the basics of the pattern too.

[keb]

The OP doesn't appear to have even read the S & T book.  Grip and posture are both covered.  All the fundamentals are there.  What I like about the stack and tilt is its simplicity and repeatability.  The concepts are also  logical.  I have been using S & T for two years and my ball striking has improved dramatically.  Now I need to learn how to sink those 10 footers consistently.

[Zeph]

Where do you get "hoax" from? Hoax: something intended to deceive or defraud. How do you figure that this is a hoax? You could fi. start by asking all those who have applied S&T; correctly and their experience with it. I'm one of those and I got nothing but good things to say about it. I don't believe in it like a religious, but I don't need to either. The S&T; guys are always looking to improve the teaching method and system. I've spent some money on S&T;, not a lot, but it's as far away from a hoax as I've ever seen. [quote name="outlaw1984" url="/t/54441/stack-and-tilt-is-it-a-hoax#post_662989"]I'm still not convinced to switch to stack and tilt though...although i have played around 50 times this year and ive lost like 1000 balls.....i still have that feeling that s&t; is a last resort for someone that cannot play the game well, is this true????[/quote] If it's true that S&T; is only a last resort? That's a strange question. I stumbled upon S&T; pretty quickly, which was lucky for me, it changed my game completely for the better. For some people it might be a last resort, but I would recommend it as a first resort to anyone. The reason it's not applied as much as some other methods is because it has recieved so much criticism from the golfing media and known names out there. The criticism is as far as I can tell not based on truth or reality, which can make you wonder why they do it. [quote name="outlaw1984" url="/t/54441/stack-and-tilt-is-it-a-hoax#post_662989"]if this was the correct method why didnt Hogan write this book 50 years ago.....im not saying that i dont respect Plummer and Bennett for teaching this method.....but is it just a fad....i tried to pull up reviews on the net and i found a site called perfectgolfswingreview.net and he said that the stack and tilt isnt biometrically correct, that it will put pressure on your spine and soon give you back problems...althought i know that Plummer and Bennett havent had one of there students be out for injury, but take 2-3 times a week golfer...will it cause problems for him?[/quote] Hogan did write a book 50+ years ago, one of which the S&T; system is based on. If you look at the mechanical components of the swing, Hogan did S&T.; He was able to explain some of it, but he also explained some of it wrong. Wrong from a mechanical point of view, but probably not from how it felt to him. "Feel is not real". Nobody called it S&T; of course, but the system is developed from the best and most successfull swings through the history, which includes Hogan. Look at a swing from Hogan and compare it to Charlie Wi, a PGA Pro using the system. Even better, look up what S&T; is about and go back to look at Hogan's swing. His swing is one of beauty and it is S&T.; Or rather, S&T; is based on his swing. There are PGA Pros, recreational golfers, amateurs, one round a week golfers, 3 rounds a week golfers, 7 rounds a week golfers using S&T; without any back or other health issues. Bennett and Plummer teach PGA Pros, maybe amateurs too, but there are lots of other teachers out there that teach S&T.; They teach guys like you and me, and there are no health issues directly linked to S&T.; There might be people that got limitations which means they can't use certain parts of the pattern, but they work around that and apply the pieces that each individual need and can work with. The injury allegations have been debunked so many times, I wonder why some people still believe it. As far as I've heard, there have been no reported health issues with S&T; as a system. On the contrary, people with limitations or health issues has improved their swing and health on the course. [quote name="outlaw1984" url="/t/54441/stack-and-tilt-is-it-a-hoax#post_662989"]Someone who has adopted this swing trying to tell me the advantages of this swing and disadvantages also....[/quote] Advantages: Hitting the ball better, lowering the handicap, understanding the swing (if you want to), being able to analyze problems yourself, learning cause and effect. Disvantages: None that I can think of as far as the swing goes. [quote name="outlaw1984" url="/t/54441/stack-and-tilt-is-it-a-hoax#post_662989"]why didnt plummer and bennett cover the grip or the posture or none of the so called traditional fundamentals???[/quote] Because they don't look at those things as fundamentals. Fundamentals in S&T; are components which every good golfer does the same way. There are millions of different grips and postures out there, which doesn't make it a fundamental. The grip and posture are important components too, but they are too individual to narrow down into one system and DVD. By teaching a certain grip to three people, one might improve, one might notice no difference, one might become worse. In S&T;, they focus on fundamentals that every good player got and work on the swing from there. S&T; does cover grip, posture and pretty much every other part of the swing too, but not all of it made it onto the DVD. They pretty much focused on the fundamentals there. Probably based on the fact that they don't change a lot of grips or postures a whole lot when teaching. [quote name="outlaw1984" url="/t/54441/stack-and-tilt-is-it-a-hoax#post_662989"]if stack and tilt is a hoax then who should someone follow?????[/quote] S&T; is not a hoax, end of discussion. If you don't like S&T;, go ahead and try something else, nobody is tying you down here. If you do try S&T; however, make sure you do it right. Preferably by using a "certified" S&T; instructor, or the internet instruction. There are people out there that claim they teach S&T;, but does nothing of the sort.

[iacas]

outlaw, I'll say simply this: buy the book, or even borrow the book from a library or something. Make up your own mind. Ask questions of people here - probably in the S&T; Thread itself - but keep an open mind and decide for yourself. You're going on incomplete information at this point, not having read the actual "source."

To the charge of back issues, read what others have written above, and read this .

[boogielicious]

I started at a HC of around 30 and am down to ~12.  I try to use most of the elements of S&T; and really, really liked the books and DVD.  I have read a lot of books and seen a lot of DVDs, the P&B; do the best job of explaining the swing.  the others are worth reading and seeing, but they all stress the same important characteristics of a good swing in a very similar manner.  It is important to gather information before making judgement or trolling the forum.

Also, as Zeph pointed out, you need to have instruction and not just make assumptions on your own.  If you can video your swing, it will really enlighten you to what you need to work on.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

Again im a beginner have been playing forn 5 months or so.....yet i have read like 10 instructional books such as Golf My Way, How I Play Golf, Leadbetter, Five Lessons, Talked personally to Shawn Clement, and have his dvd instructional series....and yes they all differ....

Seriously, buy the book (it's very cheap) and read it from cover to cover. It'll be the best money you've ever spent on golf, you'll love it and you'll be back here ASAP gagging for more information. Stop wasting your time and money on 5-6 different instructors and their methods. The quicker you start with S&T; the better. It has taken me 20-odd years to see the light, but boy am I glad I saw it sooner rather than later. Also, as a beginner you are lucky you don't have to unlearn a lot of deeply ingrained swing faults like some of us.

[SpannersReady]

I'm no expert in golf but I went to one instructor who claimed to be S and T.

Everything he did and said had all the hallmarks and red flags of an alternative medicine or a con artist. He is just one guy so it's not a large sample but it felt like a hard sell. He told me that the swing for a driver was the same as a 6 iron swing. He blew smoke up my butt for an hour and the swing itself just felt mechanical and rigid.

iscas has already told me that everything I think about it is wrong and I'll bow to experience but I'm just sharing my experience. maybe it's because of 'rouge' instructors like the one I saw that people think that it's BS.

[tristanhilton85]

I'm not so sure about S&T....; you may want to look at a centered-pivot one-plane swing instead.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by SpannersReady

I'm no expert in golf but I went to one instructor who claimed to be S and T.

For awhile, there were instructors claiming to be S&T; who really didn't know much about it at all. Anything to "get a customer."

Very funny, th85. ;-)

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

For awhile, there were instructors claiming to be S&T; who really didn't know much about it at all. Anything to "get a customer."

That's funny considering the bum rap it has/had.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

I'm not so sure about S&T....; you may want to look at a centered-pivot one-plane swing instead.

Ah the infamous Stack & Foley... I see where you're going with that one...

Wonder if Tiger will re-write "How I Play Golf" now...

[mchepp]

Many of the comments here from the others are dead on.

My suggestion is do your own research. Jeff Mann's (perfectgolfswingreview) is one perspective, one that you could argue doesn't like the claim that Golf Digest made about S&T; and he harbors a grudge because of that claim. He also has never taken a lesson from a S&T; instructor.

After a year or so of your own research I would like to hear your opinion of the swing. I bet it is different.

[outlaw1984]

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS AND GALS.....IM GOING TO BEGIN READING!!!!!

I'M GOIN TO TAKE VIDEO OF MYSELF ALSO LATER, MAY BE WHEN IT WARMS....ANY INSTRUCTORS NEAR EASTERN KY OR WEST VIRGINIA?????

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS AND GALS.....IM GOING TO BEGIN READING!!!!!

I'M GOIN TO TAKE VIDEO OF MYSELF ALSO LATER, MAY BE WHEN IT WARMS....ANY INSTRUCTORS NEAR EASTERN KY OR WEST VIRGINIA?????

http://stackandtiltgolfswing.com/stackandtilt-instructors/

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

I'm not so sure about S&T....; you may want to look at a centered-pivot one-plane swing instead.

I agree

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS AND GALS.....IM GOING TO BEGIN READING!!!!!

I'M GOIN TO TAKE VIDEO OF MYSELF ALSO LATER, MAY BE WHEN IT WARMS....ANY INSTRUCTORS NEAR EASTERN KY OR WEST VIRGINIA?????

I do not know of any in that area.  If you can't find an instructor I'd check out Evolvr

The most important thing I want to tell you is that you DO NOT need to do everything the book or the DVD says to get better.  It's about getting one or two pieces better to improve.

I posted these pictures on the S&T; thread to point out that reality of S&T; isn't as radical as some make it.  Since you're might not be as familiar with the information, all the S&T; guys are on the left