New Rules for Q-School

[mvmac]

Big shakeups in the future of Q-School , how players will be getting to the big stage and the PGA Tour schedule

Quote:

"If everything goes according to schedule, next December will be the last time that Q-school won't earn anyone a ticket straight to the PGA Tour."

"The final pieces are starting to come together in a plan that would merge the top 75 players from the Nationwide Tour with the 75 players from the PGA Tour who failed to qualify for the FedEx Cup playoffs. They would play a three-tournament series, and the top 50 would earn PGA Tour cards. The rest could go back to Q-school to try to earn status on the Nationwide Tour."

""The top 25 from the Nationwide Tour money list - players who previously would have automatically earned PGA Tour cards - would be seeded No. 1 through No. 25. The next seed would be shared by No. 26 on the Nationwide money list and No. 126 on the PGA Tour money list. The PGA Tour player would be assigned the same money as his counterpart from the Nationwide Tour."

The 3 series tournament almost gives it a March Madness feel to it.  As a fan I think it will be really exciting if it's done well and fair.  Long term I think they're correct to take spots away from Q-school, looking at the data, best players are coming off the Nationwide Tour.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Long term I think they're correct to take spots away from Q-school, looking at the data, best players are coming off the Nationwide Tour.

In that case, why take away automatic promotion for the top 25? Was a simple proposition, play well enough on the Nationwide Tour and get to the big show. Now you just earn a chance to get thrown back into a shark tank with 1 in 3 odds. Or am I missing something?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Stretch

In that case, why take away automatic promotion for the top 25? Was a simple proposition, play well enough on the Nationwide Tour and get to the big show. Now you just earn a chance to get thrown back into a shark tank with 1 in 3 odds. Or am I missing something?

The article also says that early calculations show that the top 25 on the Nationwide Tour are almost guaranteed to make it into the top 50.  Q-School is now for those who missed out on the top 50 from the 3 tournament series and about earning status on the Nationwide Tour, no longer on the PGA Tour.

[Stretch]

See that's what I was missing -- reading the article!

[The_Pharaoh]

Have they been listening to Lee Trevino?! I like the idea. It sure does make it a lot more exciting. Only the top 75, not top 125, on the PGA Tour are guaranteed their cards the following year. That's a big difference and a lot of pressure.

They could consider at least giving the top 10 from the Nationwide Tour PGA Tour cards for the following year. They can do all the calculations they like, there are no guarantees when it comes to professional golf! ;-)

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Have they been listening to Lee Trevino?! I like the idea. It sure does make it a lot more exciting. Only the top 75, not top 125, on the PGA Tour are guaranteed their cards the following year. That's a big difference and a lot of pressure.

Is says the top 75 that do not qualify for the fed ex cup. Don't the top 125 qualify for the fed ex? Or is it the top 120?

So the top 125 still get their card.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Is says the top 75 that do not qualify for the fed ex cup. Don't the top 125 qualify for the fed ex? Or is it the top 120?

So the top 125 still get their card.

Oops! I think you are right. I mis-read the article! It is Top 125.

[MEfree]

I think I like the idea for the most part BUT I think they should do something that considers a guys place on both lists.  i.e. let's say a guy finishes 130 on the PGA Tour and 30 on the NW- he should not be seeded worse than the guys who only played 1 tour and finished 129 and 29.

I have been thinking for a while that it would make sense to have some sort of combined money/point list for the two tours that rewards a guy who has some success on both.  With a combined points/money list, the guy who was 130/30 should likely keep/get a PGA Tour ahead of a guy who was 125 and didn't play the NW.

As I said http://thesandtrap.com/t/53841/should-amateur-wins-count-towards-tour-status - I like the funny money idea for the Amateurs- Harris English would have been top 25 on the NW had his amateur win counted- he got his card through Q School anyways, but guys like John Peterson and Russell Henley were no so fortunate.  But what about the Amateurs who don't play in PGA Tour Events- maybe the Top 5 or so guys at Q School should still get cards- or maybe have it more of a $/point system like it sounds like they will do for the 3 event deal.

Agree that the NW Top 10 should be a lock for their cards.  How about having the top 1, 2 or 3 guys on the NW Tour get into the Fed Ex Cup playoffs (by expanding the field, not kicking guys out)- that could be more of a Cinderella story than Billy Haas winning being seeded below 25 going into the TC.

[Leftygolfer]

I think it is kind of stupid.  So unless you played on either the PGA tour or Nationwide you have no shot at making the big show?  I also don't like that the top 25 don't get automatically in from the nationwide tour.  They obviously played well all year.  It has to be draining on them to play 30 events then have to perform well in these 3 or there out.  They aren't flying around on private jets have tricks at every stop.  I can't imagine life on the nationwide tour being glamorous.  I think they earned there break before they step on the big stage.

I like Q school.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

I think it is kind of stupid.  So unless you played on either the PGA tour or Nationwide you have no shot at making the big show?

Seems like it, except if you're a stand out amateur or do it through Monday qualifying.  They just want to ensure the quality of players is at the highest level, don't quite get that through Q-school.

[MEfree]

The NW only has about 24 events, so guys aren't being asked to play 33 under the new format.

In baseball, very few guys go straight to the major leagues.  As it stands currently, most, but not all pro golfers spend some time on the NW before going to the PGA Tour.  For the most part, that is probably a good thing, but this will have the effect of requiring more guys to spend a full year on the NW before moving up.  Maybe not a bad thing for rookies to get some seasoning before going to the big stage, but more of a burden for a guy who has a bad stretch and fall off the big stage.

For a journeyman pro, it will mean that he will have to have two relatively good years back to back to have success on the PGA Tour.  The first year having a solid season on the NW and the 2nd doing positive things at the PGA level.  That may or may not be a desired consequence.  To offset that and make sure the players that are playing best get chances on the PGA Tour (when they are playing good), I think there should be more free flow between the two tours.

The proposed modification to Q School seems to say that #126 on the PGA Tour had as good a year (in terms of having the right to play the Tour the following year) as the #26 on the NW.  If this is so, then why does the NW #26 earn about a third of PGA #126?

If you had a combined points list for the two tours, you could create a category of player that plays both tours- moving up when they are playing well and moving down when they are not.  Alternatively, this could be done on a fixed schedule if planning/travel considerations are to be given more priority than who is hot.  Other ways to do it as well.  Done correctly, I think having more free flow could strengthen the public perception of the NW Tour without hurting the image of the PGA Tour.  I also think that it could make it so more guys could consistently earn a decent amount of $ (even if the average stays the same) each year.

At the very least, I think they need to make it easier to get a mid season promotion.  Under the current format, anyone with multiple wins on the NW is guaranteed their PGA card for NEXT season.  Why not give it to them when they are playing well?  Baseball moves a guy up mid-season without winning the triple crown, I think golf should do the same, especially if they go to this new format.

I am mostly in favor of the proposal, but agree that they need to look carefully at all the details to make sure they get it right without any unintended consequences.

Hopefully, they will consult people who have a better understanding of math than the guys who approved the current formulation of the OWGR http://www.mattelston.com/2011/04/27/world-golf-rankings-mathematically-flawed/

[The_Pharaoh]

How about considering a relegation and promotion scenario, similar to soccer leagues across the world? The PGA Tour would be the First Division and the Nationwide Tour the Second Division.

At the end of the year, the top 100 on the PGA Tour would stay up and the top 50 on the Nationwide Tour would be promoted to the PGA Tour. Positions 101-150 on the PGA Tour would be relegated to the Nationwide Tour. Positions 51-100 would stay on the Nationwide Tour. Positions 150+ on the PGA Tour and positions 101+ on the Nationwide Tour would go to Q school to battle it out for 50 places on the Nationwide Tour. You could even have agreements with other tours across the US to keep the relegation/promotion scenario going.

I am obviously basing this on both tours only having 150 cards each, which is usually the maximum number of players that can play in any given tournament. I know there are exceptions, but worked with me on this!

I haven't given this a lot of thought, it occured to me just now, so I'm sure my idea has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. It seems like a fair way to always have the top 150 players in the First Division (the PGA Tour). It also gives players 101-150 on the PGA Tour the security of having somewhere to play the year after losing their tour card.

Thoughts?

[poser]

Wonder it they will drop the price of Q shool now.  Probably will go up.

[mvmac]

Recent Article , Rickie Fowler doesn't like the idea

Quote:

"NAPLES, Fla. – Rickie Fowler is among golf’s youngest stars, but count him in the old guard.

Fowler, 22, likes PGA Tour Q-School just the way it is and is wary of a new proposal that threatens to end the qualifying system as we know it.

“I’m strongly for Q-School staying the way it is,” Fowler said after his Thursday pro-am round at the Franklin Templeton Shootout. “It’s not exactly a broken system.”

There’s a buzz in the player ranks with news emerging that the PGA Tour is considering a new qualifying system for membership. According to a plan outlined by The Associated Press, there is a proposal to create a new three-tournament series in the fall to determine who wins PGA Tour cards. Under that proposal, the top 75 Nationwide Tour money winners and 75 players from the PGA Tour who did not retain their exempt status (Nos. 126-200 on the money list) would compete in the three-tournament qualifying series.

Under the proposal, the Tour would no longer award PGA Tour cards to the top 25 on the Nationwide Tour money list and the top 25 at Q-School. Instead, the top 50 from the new qualifying series would earn cards. A new version of Q-School would then be held to fill out the Nationwide Tour.

Under this proposal, top amateurs would still have a direct path to the PGA Tour by earning top-125 money through sponsor invites and other special access to PGA Tour events. There’s even consideration for allowing amateurs to play their way onto the Tour without declaring themselves pros until they’ve reached the money required to earn exempt status.

Fowler believes he’s not alone among young players wanting to protect the old-guard way of Q-School.

“I definitely feel like a lot of young guys feel the same way I do,” Fowler said. “It seems like the new qualifying system would protect guys on the PGA Tour, and that it would shut the front door to open qualifying. There wouldn’t be the same direct path to the PGA Tour for college players and mini-tour players the way there is now.

“If Q-School went away, it would definitely cut off a path for those college players who aren’t the top three or four players coming out of college.”

Fowler nearly earned his PGA Tour card playing on sponsor exemptions at the end of 2009, but he ultimately secured his card in Q-School that winter.

Steve Stricker , a PGA Tour Policy Board member, said after his pro-am round Thursday that there is still room for meaningful discussion and tinkering before the board decides the matter. The plan could come to a vote as early as next month.

“There isn’t a final plan yet,” Stricker said. “We want to make sure whatever the plan is, that it meets everybody’s needs, because we’re talking about livelihoods. We all know it’s important.”

Stricker said he is hearing support for change from fellow players, but he’s also hearing concerns.

“I thought it would be a nice idea if we still allowed 10 or so spots through Q-School to get out on Tour, and then take more spots from the Nationwide Tour,” Stricker said. “I think that might be a happy medium.

“Stats have shown the 25 guys who come out of Q-School don’t really fare that well, so maybe knock it down to 15, or 10 guys, and then maybe take more guys from the Nationwide Tour. That way, you have a compromise. That’s in the talks, too.”

[turtleback]

This seems like a foolish scheme that is designed more to protect the mediocre than improve the tour.  The people who will be prevented from going right out on tour by making it through Q-school at the beginning of their career are probably going to be the best new  players.  Why do they want to keep them off the tour if they can demonstrate their quality by their Q-school play?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by mvmac

“Stats have shown the 25 guys who come out of Q-School don’t really fare that well, so maybe knock it down to 15, or 10 guys, and then maybe take more guys from the Nationwide Tour. That way, you have a compromise. That’s in the talks, too.”

This is interesting. My knee-jerk reaction was much like those expressed above. It would be unfortunate to drop the possibility of playing through Q-school and then making the big show. Kind of kills the dream. However, assuming the stats cited above are accurate, maybe it's not such a bad thing. Arguments that we should maintain the status quo because it works are only valid if it's actually been working. If the guys joining the Tour out of Q-school are not finding success, then it's quite fair to say the process is not serving its purpose.

Stricker's suggested compromise is interesting, but only if the stats actually bear out that the top few Q-school graduates do substantially better than the top 25 do as a bloc.

Forcing a path through the minor leagues (NW Tour) isn't such a bad thing. Trying to predict when a mediocre pro-level player is going to hit a peak good enough to compete on the big Tour is impossible, so a system that favors players who are consistent enough to string together a good showing in Q-school, a good year on the NW Tour, and success in the proposed tournament series isn't so bad. The number of players who were unable to do that but who would realistically make more than a couple cuts on the Tour must be vanishingly small.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

How about considering a relegation and promotion scenario, similar to soccer leagues across the world? The PGA Tour would be the First Division and the Nationwide Tour the Second Division.

At the end of the year, the top 100 on the PGA Tour would stay up and the top 50 on the Nationwide Tour would be promoted to the PGA Tour. Positions 101-150 on the PGA Tour would be relegated to the Nationwide Tour. Positions 51-100 would stay on the Nationwide Tour. Positions 150+ on the PGA Tour and positions 101+ on the Nationwide Tour would go to Q school to battle it out for 50 places on the Nationwide Tour. You could even have agreements with other tours across the US to keep the relegation/promotion scenario going.

I am obviously basing this on both tours only having 150 cards each, which is usually the maximum number of players that can play in any given tournament. I know there are exceptions, but worked with me on this!

I haven't given this a lot of thought, it occured to me just now, so I'm sure my idea has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. It seems like a fair way to always have the top 150 players in the First Division (the PGA Tour). It also gives players 101-150 on the PGA Tour the security of having somewhere to play the year after losing their tour card.

Thoughts?

It is mostly that way already but with different numbers- a full time tour member who finishes outside of the top 150 gets a spot on the NW the next year

[slabm7]

I personally am not a fan of the new proposed qualifying system. I really like the idea of Q-school. It gives anyone who wants to give there big league dream a shot to pay there money and put there game to the test. Its the only professional sport that I know that any guy can his pay entry fee and have a shot at the big time. If the stats are true and most talented golfers come from the NW tour as opposed to Q school then maybe rework the numbers, take the top 35/40 from the NW tour and maybe 10/15 from Q-school.