My favorite drills for hands ahead of clubhead

[bunkerputt]

Tom,

I would try not to take any of this personally, for sure.  It only has the potential to make you a better golfer if you'll let it.  The thing that really stuck out in my mind was the passion about rotating hard in the downswing as a cure for lack of forward shaft lean.  I used to have that same misguided passion because I drank the Peter Kostis and Ben Hogan 5 fundamentals kool-aid where they talk about things like rotating the hips to start the downswing, clearing the hips, etc.  In fact, that's what this whole thread is about:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/29948/hip-bump-or-hip-turn-you-be-the-judge

Like most people who still suck but are passionate about improving, I thought I had an epiphany about the downswing, tried it out to the range, and because of hand-eye coordination and confidence, was able to make it work.  Eventually it lost it's luster because I started getting frustrated with my high ball flight and inconsistent contact, typically on the toe.  I had this idea that the hips of good golfers moved in a certain way that combined lateral and rotary motion in such a way that they were both occurring without anyone being wrong about it.  I even came up with a little animated gif to show what I was talking about, thought of some drills, etc.  It really only took Iacas saying that there were measurements of actual golfers out there to make me start looking into it.  I found some stuff where they put tour players in full body suits and measured what their bodies were doing, rotated the camera angle and looked at what the hips were doing from the rear.  My gif wasn't anywhere in the ball park.  Way too much rotation.  The rotation was causing the early release as well as hurting my back.  You certainly don't rotate nearly as much as I did, which is good, and surely one of the reasons why you are a much lower handicap than I was.

I firmly believe that telling high handicappers to rotate more in the downswing is only going to frustrate them for a really long time like it did for me.  I think Iacas believes the same thing and that's part of where the passion is coming from.  You have a lot of passion too.  Because of that, be extra careful about the advice you give because there are a lot of people out there who will take what you say to heart and it may screw them up for a long time.

[mvmac]

Quote:

first - IACAS: i don't come around very often. but, when i have you have sought me out it seems to poke holes in whatever i may have to say. iacas has done this every time, literally. i understand he is a proprietor of this website. i understand he is an instructor, profits from his advice, derives clients from this website and is (was?) a proponent of stack and tilt. it seems if he is no longer a proponent of s&t; exclusively, it would be because s&t; as a stand alone swing method has really been debunked. but in past, he has professed it as "the" swing. over the past two years or so i've seen where he has massaged s&t; to be the swing methodology employed by ben hogan and other legends, but they didn't know it was stack and tilt. i have called him out on that, and some others agreed with me that he (and this site) is a bit overt on the s&t; chatter. has this changed? i don't know. but because of this i don't participate much in discussions.

Just say'n Tom, Daniel Summerhays on the right, his swing coach is Grant Waite.

Originally Posted by Tom

as to the "straightening" of the right leg... whatever! yeah - come on... bubba watson? see below. can his leg straighten any more? everyone knows why you WOULD want to straighten your back leg. it maximizes the amount of rearward hip rotation which also maximizes the amount he is able to turn behind the ball. is this for everyone? it could be... does it matter? i don't think so. why would anyone profess not to straighten the rear leg? a straightening rear leg could cause your upper body to tilt toward the target if you don't have a sufficient upper body spine angle (away from target). but, watch the vid. after bubba gets his turn he "squats" a bit and rotates his hips thru just about more than anyone. was bubba's dad saying to him "uh son, you can't do that!!" no... his dad knew his game - saw his scorecard(s), saw he could do anything with the golf ball, etc.,

I'd suggest you flare your right foot out more at address, see a little of what Sergio is doing, this pic is from James Hirshield.  Grant on the left straightening his right knee to turn on an incline plane and maintain a stable axis

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Tom,

I would try not to take any of this personally, for sure.  It only has the potential to make you a better golfer if you'll let it.  The thing that really stuck out in my mind was the passion about rotating hard in the downswing as a cure for lack of forward shaft lean.  I used to have that same misguided passion because I drank the Peter Kostis and Ben Hogan 5 fundamentals kool-aid where they talk about things like rotating the hips to start the downswing, clearing the hips, etc.  In fact, that's what this whole thread is about:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/29948/hip-bump-or-hip-turn-you-be-the-judge

Like most people who still suck but are passionate about improving, I thought I had an epiphany about the downswing, tried it out to the range, and because of hand-eye coordination and confidence, was able to make it work.  Eventually it lost it's luster because I started getting frustrated with my high ball flight and inconsistent contact, typically on the toe.  I had this idea that the hips of good golfers moved in a certain way that combined lateral and rotary motion in such a way that they were both occurring without anyone being wrong about it.  I even came up with a little animated gif to show what I was talking about, thought of some drills, etc.  It really only took Iacas saying that there were measurements of actual golfers out there to make me start looking into it.  I found some stuff where they put tour players in full body suits and measured what their bodies were doing, rotated the camera angle and looked at what the hips were doing from the rear.  My gif wasn't anywhere in the ball park.  Way too much rotation.  The rotation was causing the early release as well as hurting my back.  You certainly don't rotate nearly as much as I did, which is good, and surely one of the reasons why you are a much lower handicap than I was.

I firmly believe that telling high handicappers to rotate more in the downswing is only going to frustrate them for a really long time like it did for me.  I think Iacas believes the same thing and that's part of where the passion is coming from.  You have a lot of passion too.  Because of that, be extra careful about the advice you give because there are a lot of people out there who will take what you say to heart and it may screw them up for a long time.

Sure glad I read that entire thread. If I had stopped after the first page or so and taken any of it and applied it to my swing I would have completely destroyed everything I've gained recently! Phew! Close call! Your absolutely right in that you have to be VERY careful on what kind of advice you give out and you have to be VERY careful in what advice you take in.

I would say that thread should probably have some kind of "WARNING" label at the top for anyone who stumbles across it and doesn't read far enough to encounter IACAS' contributions. It could really mess a guy up!

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I agree. It also should be said for Tom's 'roid rage at others because they disagree.

Originally Posted by poser

I'll have to disagree.  It's a golf forum on the interent not a fist fight in the parking lot.  If what he said offended someone then they need to get some thicker skin.

I know what you are saying, poser but just because this is the internet and not a parking lot, doesn't mean we have to act like we are in a parking lot. There are actual people on the end of each avatar. At least one hopes! Condoning this sort of behaviour is just another sign of the times. It's just too easy these days to fire off an aggressive e-mail or a snide remark and then run off (virtually speaking). It's easy because the Internet is faceless and there are no consequences to our actions other than getting banned from the site. Oh well, who cares? Let's move on. I admit that I am not squeaky clean in this department, but have resolved this year to read my posts twice before pressing the submit button!

The sad thing is, I bet if Tom and Erik met on the first tee one day they'd get on like a house on fire and really enjoy each other's company dissecting the golf swing for the entire round.

[Tom]

if you look at iacas' response to my response he dissects, condescends, builds sarcasm into his statements, etc. i don't have any time for his bologna. apparently i came late to the party and didn't realize this website's intent. i thought the website "sandtrap.com", that i found because of some good equip reviews, etc., was a golf discussion open to anyone pure and simple. i thought because i was a + hndcp that i would be helping others but didn't realize the site was monitored by a self proclaimed golf czar in iacass. the site should be called "stack-n-tilt.com." i'll just take a vacation from this site and when/if i come back i most assuredly won't be posting anything. i'm off. insert vacuous sound here. bye -

[applejr]

Originally Posted by Tom

if you look at iacas' response to my response he dissects, condescends, builds sarcasm into his statements, etc. i don't have any time for his bologna. apparently i came late to the party and didn't realize this website's intent. i thought the website "sandtrap.com", that i found because of some good equip reviews, etc., was a golf discussion open to anyone pure and simple. i thought because i was a + hndcp that i would be helping others but didn't realize the site was monitored by a self proclaimed golf czar in iacass. the site should be called "stack-n-tilt.com." i'll just take a vacation from this site and when/if i come back i most assuredly won't be posting anything. off to golfwrx.com and hackrsparadi*e.com. insert vacuous sound here. bye -

I don't think I've ever seen someone get their feelings hurt so much over the internet. And why do you keep referring to stack and tilt, when the argument started over you giving different advice then you practice. Nothing to do with stack and tilt.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I agree. It also should be said for Tom's 'roid rage at others because they disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poser

I'll have to disagree.  It's a golf forum on the interent not a fist fight in the parking lot.  If what he said offended someone then they need to get some thicker skin.

I know what you are saying, poser but just because this is the internet and not a parking lot, doesn't mean we have to act like we are in a parking lot. There are actual people on the end of each avatar. At least one hopes! Condoning this sort of behaviour is just another sign of the times. It's just too easy these days to fire off an aggressive e-mail or a snide remark and then run off (virtually speaking). It's easy because the Internet is faceless and there are no consequences to our actions other than getting banned from the site. Oh well, who cares? Let's move on. I admit that I am not squeaky clean in this department, but have resolved this year to read my posts twice before pressing the submit button!

The sad thing is, I bet if Tom and Erik met on the first tee one day they'd get on like a house on fire and really enjoy each other's company dissecting the golf swing for the entire round.

How much would you want to bet on that?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I would say that thread should probably have some kind of "WARNING" label at the top for anyone who stumbles across it and doesn't read far enough to encounter IACAS' contributions. It could really mess a guy up!

If the OP wants me to add a warning (in bold or red or anything) to that thread, please PM me and I'll add it if he wishes.

Originally Posted by Tom

if you look at iacas' response to my response he dissects, condescends, builds sarcasm into his statements, etc.

If you say so. I'm pretty sure the record shows you as the one who has behaved poorly, refused to answer any of the questions asked of you, etc. It's not my fault you can neither explain nor demonstrate what you tell others to do. Apparently pointing out facts is now "sarcastic" and "condescending." If so, I'm okay with that.

Originally Posted by Tom

i thought the website "sandtrap.com", that i found because of some good equip reviews, etc., was a golf discussion open to anyone pure and simple.

It is. From where I'm sitting you're the one choosing not to participate by answering questions or discussing things like an adult. Have you been restricted from posting in some way? No. You're free to post so long as you don't act like a complete and utter whatever. But "open to anyone" doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything you've said. That's the opposite of "discussion" in my book.

Originally Posted by Tom

i thought because i was a + hndcp that i would be helping others but didn't realize the site was monitored by a self proclaimed golf czar in iacass.

You can't help people if you have no idea what you're doing in your own swing and can't explain your "theories" very well. And for the record, I'm pretty sure I've never "self proclaimed" myself to be "golf czar."

Originally Posted by Tom

the site should be called "stack-n-tilt.com." i'll just take a vacation from this site and when/if i come back i most assuredly won't be posting anything.

...

insert vacuous sound here. bye -

You seem to me to be bizarrely obsessed with S&T.; Why do you keep mentioning it? I'm not sure you understand it as well as you think.

Oh, and my computer defines "vacuous" as "having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless :". See? We can agree on stuff! I agree that "insert vacuous sound here" is a great way to summarize most of your posts!

Originally Posted by sean_miller

How much would you want to bet on that?

$0. Less if I could. :)

As I said before, I hope Tom stays. I hope he contributes. But thus far the contribution has been small.

[james_hirshfield]

I 'czarn't' believe what I'm reading.

Every one can post their own opinion, but what is important, is being able to back it up with knowledge, science, geometry, physics, whatever you want to call it.

Don't leave Tom. It's fine to disagree with someone, or not get on with people, thats life, but don't leave, I'm sure there are things that we can learn from you, and you can learn from us.

Look forward to hearing from you and Erik that there has been a nice little cuddle.

MIKE, STOP POSTING UP ALL THESE PICTURES THAT ILLUSTRATE YOUR POINT SO CLEARLY. IT'S PISSING ME OFF. :P

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

It is. From where I'm sitting you're the one choosing not to participate by answering questions or discussing things like an adult. Have you been restricted from posting in some way? No. You're free to post so long as you don't act like a complete and utter whatever. But "open to anyone" doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything you've said. That's the opposite of "discussion" in my book.

Exactly, we have no problem with debate, but you gotta give us some reasons why, like actual examples or data to back up your claims.  What makes you look bad Tom is name calling and especially doing it towards someone who gives away more free information than most.  Where can I find your instruction videos?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

If you say so. I'm pretty sure the record shows you as the one who has behaved poorly, refused to answer any of the questions asked of you, etc. It's not my fault you can neither explain nor demonstrate what you tell others to do. Apparently pointing out facts is now "sarcastic" and "condescending." If so, I'm okay with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

Every one can post their own opinion, but what is important, is being able to back it up with knowledge, science, geometry, physics, whatever you want to call it.

Don't leave Tom. It's fine to disagree with someone, or not get on with people, thats life, but don't leave, I'm sure there are things that we can learn from you, and you can learn from us.

Again, let's have a real discussion based with some knowledge of anatomy, geometry and physics.  I always like that we learn something new or add new information to our repertoire, Dave Wedzik tells us to tear it apart, try to disprove it and see if we're correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You can't help people if you have no idea what you're doing in your own swing and can't explain your "theories" very well. And for the record, I'm pretty sure I've never "self proclaimed" myself to be "golf czar."

No but I will

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You seem to me to be bizarrely obsessed with S&T.; Why do you keep mentioning it? I'm not sure you understand it as well as you think.

That's something I'll bet on

Quote:

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

MIKE, STOP POSTING UP ALL THESE PICTURES THAT ILLUSTRATE YOUR POINT SO CLEARLY. IT'S PISSING ME OFF. :P

I can't help it James, it's how I was taught.  And as you know, no one is more critical of the information than we(Dave, Erik, James, me) are

[Mr. Desmond]

So let me get this straight -

Plus golfer offers a drill,

Video shows he doesn't do the drill as offered,

He is informed his video and his drill as offered are inconsistent with each other,

He is offended at comment informing him of the difference between what he says and what he does;

He attacks fellow golfer for pointing out the difference.

He threatens to leave forum.

---

Unfortunately, this is not unusual.

It's okay. He will either learn from this or it will play out for him in the same way down the road.

[Stretch]

This thread contains almost as much butthurt as it does multiquotation.

[bunkerputt]

I hope Tom stays.  As an obviously athletically gifted guy, I'm sure he has something to offer.  I'm also pretty sure he's not sure what that is yet.  It certainly isn't everything and he obviously has some maturing to do in his thought process and especially in the way he handles criticism.  If you go back and read the thread from the beginning, the first objections were from guys like Poser who rightly pointed out that more rotation isn't what most golfers need more of to improve.  Somehow it devolved into Tom vs. Iacas+Stack and Tilt.  Then, quite randomly, a scorecard from a nice round gets posted by Tom as proof of something.  It has all the flavor of someone who got torqued around the axle and started redlining over the tiniest bit of critique.

There are a lot of ways to argue about something.  Most people don't bring actual reasons or try to avoid fallacious lines of reasoning, but instead try to bulldoze their way through the conversation by being loud and rhetorical.  It's just easier that way, and a lot of people they argue against will just give up because in the end, neither of them really care about or understand the truth.  They just have a lot of face that they want to save or a nagging sense that something isn't right with the world or whatever.  So bulldozers walk away not actually coming to any knowledge of the truth, not actually understanding something deeper, and walking on to find the next victim to bulldoze.  Those people usually hit a wall and run off dejected when they run into someone who knows what he believes, exactly why he believes it, has reality on his side, and is extremely passionate about it.  There are a lot of ways to argue about something, but really only a few at most, correct ways to argue.  I'm pretty proud of a lot of guys on this site for having skin thick enough and a love of the truth deep enough to be willing to take a backseat to better reasoning when it comes along.  I hope Tom can get to that place.