65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by susanne

mmoan,

enjoyed reading your post.Fully agree with you.If a 18 handicapper took lessons from a ´´Good techer´´ anbd worked on the short shots,his or her handicap would come down.

putting - give the player a better teqnique,teach him about reading greens he would improve,maybe only 1 putt less a round.

chipping and pitching - improve hs technique,so where as before he would top a couple over the green each round or hit it fat,he can hit it more consistantly.-would save him a couple of shots a round.

Bunker - teach him better set up,etc,so now can get out of the trap on 1st gowill knock a shot off his game.

So all in all, with some practice he would save 3 shots a round.

Now lets take the long game,lets improve his swing,lets get the player to have the club in the perfect positon at the top,great turn through the ball,great rythem,i mean really sound technique.He will still hit it in the trees every other hole.If Snedeker and co cant average better than 12 greens in reg,hows a Amature going to.

For all you experts,these are my  personal thoughts,and everyone is free to have their own,but unless you have any better ideas to write on a forum,then just leave it.the guy who says about me making a spelling mistake,(which i find a bit unfair as for a german my english isnt that terrible):And what the point of the quote that i come from austria,wow how interesting.....sad.

Jeez you are just wrong! The data is there and its solid. You just want to argue for the point of arguing, it's ridiculous. I look at myself from when I was a 15 to now and the big difference is long game. My putting remains almost the same. I chip and pitch around the greens better than I did when I was a 15. But the huge improvement is the long game. As a 15 I always had 3-4 topped drives and then 5-6 really bad mishits during every round. Now, I have no topped drives and my mishits are considerably less drastic. I play with an 8 handicap whose short game is every bit as good as mine but his ball striking is iffy at best. He hits at least 1-2 balls OB every round and twice that into the trees or are miss-hit in some way. I beat him completely on long game. Funny thing is he never hits balls, just comes out 3-4 times a week to chip and putt.

[Club Rat]

Just noticed this is an old thread which has popped up once again with some interesting comments.

I agree that anyone who plays golf will benefit greatly with a practice routine, versus someone who frequently takes the time.

Just wanted to add the thought of a when player should commit practice time after current rounds.

Many of the pros head directly to the range and putting green after a round to work on a variety of aspects of their game. Some may just hit certain irons, practice a specific shot, or the putting stroke.

So to add to the "Practice Ratios" a percentage should be considered for current issues.

Club Rat

[mmoan2]

I think the forum director addressed this when he said 65/25/10 is normal, but if you have a glaring weakness, then the ratios obviously change until things normalize. That probably holds for pros too who go work on some specific thing after the round.

NM Golf proves my point, though, by saying he basically putts the same since he was 15 (which I hope isn't entirely true, because if you do anything for several years with practice and haven't improved at all, then something's not right. You must be a better green reader, or have more experience from difficult greens, or learned a claw grip, or something to be a 0.0 hcap) and chips and pitches a little better. By him working hard on those things at an early age, he has been able to only need to maintain them now and work more on full swing. I also imagine a few years of strength and muscle growth have helped the long game. If I had learned the proper way to putt and chip when I was 15, I probably wouldn;t have given up golf at 22 and only picked it up again at 35 because nothing is more frustrating than being able to hit a baseball 450 feet, but when going to the golf course and FINALLY striping a drive in the fairway after 9 holes of futility, then taking six more shots to put it in the hole.

[Jakester23]

I highly doubt your striping it down the fairway every hole and taking a 7 on every hole. The point Erik is making is completely accurate Ive played with some terrible golfers and have never seen someone 3 putt every or take 2 chips on every hole. If you cant stay play off the tee and if you cant hit iron shots on the green you have no hope having a good score. Ill take hitting 10-12 fairways and 12-14 GIR's with mostly 2 putts and a few 3 putts any day. If it takes to 4 to get to the green and you hit a great chip and tap in its a double no matter how good your short game is. The hardest part of everyones games is full swing cause you use it more than any other part of your game. A bad chip is never going to be as bad as a bad tee shot normally you don't chip into a hazard but Ive hit tons of tee shots in the hazard.

[mmoan2]

All,

It's funny, I haven;t been back to this site for a while, as I've been busier at work and then and actually learning/playing golf, but I noticed something about my game and went back to that old, very helpful, post about what ratio of time one should spend working on their game, and I felt inclined to post. I should've known about 5 old hands would come down on me like a ton of bricks, but the comments were correct when they did. To paraphrase, I think the mantra goes like this: The best ratio of time you employ working on your game should be around 65/25/10 (full/short/putting), unless you have some glaring weakness that requires the formula to change. Myriad statistics prove that GIR and good ball striking will almost always do more for your scores than anything else - just like that commercial for a 3-wood where the narrator says "they say short game is the best way to improve your scores, unless you don;t need a short game" and some pro (I think Camilo Villegas) rips the 3-wood 275 on to the green feet from the pin. I think several people have shown up on the forum in the past trying to refute this, and I believe it's irrefutable.

I tried to refute it (sort of) the other day, but I think the responses have yielded some new insights that I thought some people might find important. Here they go:

If you are a brand-new golfer, like I was at 35 in November of 2010, (I screwed around a bit as a kid when I was an athlete, but working on my game then meant taking beers to the driving range with my baseball player friends and trying to hit driver 300 yards or whack the ball boy in the cage when he was 200 yards away with a 5-iron). I think it may behoove you to make the ratio more like 30-40-30, or 35-35-30 (I'm being really scientific here!) for a few months. If anything, to improve your patience and willingness to work harder mentally. I used a heavy short game/putting ratio when I started because I fell in love with Dave Pelz (which has faded fast, but not in all ways) and I think it made me much more confident and relaxed to know that if it took me three strokes to get to within 40 yards of the pin on a par four, I had a good shot at bogey or double at worst, but quadruple was likely not a factor. It only took me like three months to develop a pretty good basic pitch, chip, greenside bunker shot, even a flop, and putting stroke. It drives me nuts now to watch 60 year-old men warm up, many who have probably been playing golf as long as I've been alive, with atrocious super wristy chipping motions, long, swooping pitching motions that look like they're trying to stab a fly on the ball, etc. I think beginning golfers should spend more time on short game/putting for a brief while because the motions are so simple and easy to maintain . After a few months of heavy work on those two, and then a year at 65/25/10, I think most people of average coordination can be above average short game players/putters, and they are skills that will last. I plan on needing a LONG TIME to hit the ball really well with my woods/irons/and full wedges.

I feel like I've moved up to intermediate level now (I usually score in the mid and low 80s), and I've also come to believe that "working" on short game/putting requires you to PLAY more, or at least work on shots on a course and not on the range. Most people have a home driving range or even two, and if they are range rats like me, they probably know every single bump around the green of their short game area. I could probably draw the short game area at Dobson Ranch Golf Club in Mesa, AZ from memory right now, down to how many teeth are on the sand trap rake (well, maybe not). I think my ability to chip/pitch like a pro there has given me false confidence in that part of my game. I think if you want to be a really good golfer, the old "practice on the range, but when you play just have fun and try your best" mantra isn't always true, even with other people. In playing more recently, I've noticed that chips I feel I should hit in my sleep may roll 5 feet more during a round, making a tap in now a 6 or 7 footer. We all know how those usually turn out. I think you have to try shots on the course, even with full swing, that aren't even necessarily the smartest ones. Maybe if you are lucky to play enough, you can make "practice" rounds for yourself, and then rounds when you dedicate yourself to just trying to score your best. How many cut shots around a big tree from pine straw have you practiced on the range? How the heck do you consistently find time to practice from a fairway bunker at 150 yards+? I think for short game this is even more important because a 180 yard approach from the fairway for most of us generally requires  the same, or a very similar, swing, but almost every short game shot you see is likely very new. The slope is different, the angle to the green is different, the distance is different, etc. In short, I think my full swing on the course is very similar to how I perform on the range (it's of course a little worse, but I almost always hit long with a draw or hook, sometimes big, when I miss), but my short game and putting are nowhere near as good on the course as on the range . I think nerves has something to do with it (which is one reason why I still buy Dave Pelz's "no adrenaline swing" concept, even if I don't fully buy his technique), but it's also because a nuanced shot requires such precision. An 180 yard shot can be 10 yards left  of your target and still be on the green, which should mean a two putt. 5 FEET off on a pitch or a chip and you're probably adding a stroke half the time at least, for an average amateur putter. Worse yet, I don;t think more short game practice at Dobson Ranch will make much difference. Shoot, I heard Tiger Woods has six DIFFERENT KINDS OF GRASS at his home short game area, so he can warm up with Bermuda, Rye, etc. Now that's what I need!

Anyway, hope this helps. Play more, and now when you slice it in the woods, you can tell people "oh, that was just me practicing my cut shot." Cheers!

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

NM Golf proves my point, though, by saying he basically putts the same since he was 15 (which I hope isn't entirely true, because if you do anything for several years with practice and haven't improved at all, then something's not right.

Unfortunately I have never been known as a very good putter, quite a poor putter actually . Interestingly enough I used to be known too as someone who hit the ball a long way but rarely where I wanted it to go. That has changed through the years, as I have become pretty accurate in the long game. Hence the lowering of my handicap.

[mmoan2]

I don;t think you read what I wrote. I never said I stripe it down every fairway. I said when I did after 9 HOLES, I would usually botch it with 2 chips and 2 putts, which was incredibly frustrating. I TOTALLY AGREE with Erik, but my point is (see another thread I wrote about this) that a lot of putting and short game EARLY in your golf career will go a long way. That's my opinion at least, and it's not much different from what he's (and all the others) are saying.

Also, if you are a 15 handicap and hitting 12-14 GIRs a round on average like you posted, you either a)need to start playing from the championship tees because PGA tour pros at best average around 70% GIRs for a season, b) need to do a 10-45-45 ratio because your short game and putting need big time work, or c)need to hit the PGA Tour and get a short game coach.  I also don;t agree that a bad full swing is worse than a bad chip, especially mentally. I'd rather drive it in the woods 250 left, slice it into the woods 175 right, hit a wedge short to the fringe and then chip well and one putt for a bogey than drive it down the middle, hit a pretty good iron shot but come up just short of the green, and then hit a crappy chip for a two putt bogey. The first feels like a breath of fresh air, but the second one makes me want to snap my putter in half.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

I also don;t agree that a bad full swing is worse than a bad chip, especially mentally.

The problem with that is that you rarely encounter penalty strokes with chipping and putting.

Originally Posted by mmoan2

It only took me like three months to develop a pretty good basic pitch, chip, greenside bunker shot, even a flop, and putting stroke. It drives me nuts now to watch 60 year-old men warm up, many who have probably been playing golf as long as I've been alive, with atrocious super wristy chipping motions, long, swooping pitching motions that look like they're trying to stab a fly on the ball, etc.

Those guys often have some pretty bad golf swings, too. That's why they break 100 on a good day. They'd do well to practice ALL facets of their game. They probably putt a little better than their handicap indicates, and their full swing and short game are a little worse.

Very little point in discussing made-up scenarios or those you've "experienced" without any actual data. Chart 10,000 of their rounds and report back with lots of data and we'll see what it says. :-)

Originally Posted by mmoan2

I think beginning golfers should spend more time on short game/putting for a brief while because the motions are so simple and easy to maintain.

Yes, I said that already. :)

Originally Posted by mmoan2

The slope is different, the angle to the green is different, the distance is different, etc. In short, I think my full swing on the course is very similar to how I perform on the range (it's of course a little worse, but I almost always hit long with a draw or hook, sometimes big, when I miss), but my short game and putting are nowhere near as good on the course as on the range.

I almost never practice my short game on the course. Heck, all winter I've practiced only indoors. No bunkers, the same few chipping areas, and ceilings.

Yet... I think because I know how to practice - I practice speed, trajectory, spin, etc. - it instantly carries over. My short game was good in California. I hit a number of really good pitch shots and chips.

I employ some basic, very simple fundamentals to my chipping and short game, but beyond that, it's just visualizing, imagination, and touch/feel. Develop that. It sounds like your short game is robotic, or the opposite of mine.

[mmoan2]

Originally Posted by iacas

The problem with that is that you rarely encounter penalty strokes with chipping and putting.

Those guys often have some pretty bad golf swings, too. That's why they break 100 on a good day. They'd do well to practice ALL facets of their game. They probably putt a little better than their handicap indicates, and their full swing and short game are a little worse.

Very little point in discussing made-up scenarios or those you've "experienced" without any actual data. Chart 10,000 of their rounds and report back with lots of data and we'll see what it says. :-)

Yes, I said that already. :)

I almost never practice my short game on the course. Heck, all winter I've practiced only indoors. No bunkers, the same few chipping areas, and ceilings.

Yet... I think because I know how to practice - I practice speed, trajectory, spin, etc. - it instantly carries over. My short game was good in California. I hit a number of really good pitch shots and chips.

I employ some basic, very simple fundamentals to my chipping and short game, but beyond that, it's just visualizing, imagination, and touch/feel. Develop that. It sounds like your short game is robotic, or the opposite of mine.

I see your point, which is why I hesitate to post, though if everyone had to chart 10,000 rounds with lots of data every time they posted on a golf forum it would be more like a pro golfer's blog rather than a forum. I just try to post something when it "feels" right to me here because I don;t have the time to chart other golfers (got my own job and game to worry about ya know!). Maybe other amateurs feel similar to me and can take your expert advice to form their own opinions. Maybe some guys will develop touch/feel and improve their visualization by practicing on the course. Maybe not. I certainly don't think it will hurt one's game to spend some time practicing short game shots on the course, as long as they spend ample time keeping up with the full swing as well.

I also practice speed, trajectory, spin, etc. very much, and I often hit very good shots. I practice off of downhill lies a lot, out of divots, on hills, in deep grass, to very short greens... I holed a 50 yard eagle pitch the other day and the round before that hit a 50 yarder off the pin for a tap in birdie. I think you're right, I may be a little robotic (another reason I have moved away from Pelz), but I believe my touch/feel will be earned on the course and not the practice area. That's what I'm going to do (as well as practice fades, awkward lies, hooks, etc. with full swing) this summer, and if I come back in 3 months and tell you I'm still hitting 83 on a muni course because my short game is inadequate, you can say I told you so for the whole forum to see! See you in September!

[Mac62]

Originally Posted by susanne

mmoan,

enjoyed reading your post.Fully agree with you.If a 18 handicapper took lessons from a ´´Good techer´´ anbd worked on the short shots,his or her handicap would come down.

putting - give the player a better teqnique,teach him about reading greens he would improve,maybe only 1 putt less a round.

chipping and pitching - improve hs technique,so where as before he would top a couple over the green each round or hit it fat,he can hit it more consistantly.-would save him a couple of shots a round.

Bunker - teach him better set up,etc,so now can get out of the trap on 1st gowill knock a shot off his game.

So all in all, with some practice he would save 3 shots a round.

Now lets take the long game,lets improve his swing,lets get the player to have the club in the perfect positon at the top,great turn through the ball,great rythem,i mean really sound technique.He will still hit it in the trees every other hole.If Snedeker and co cant average better than 12 greens in reg,hows a Amature going to.

For all you experts,these are my  personal thoughts,and everyone is free to have their own,but unless you have any better ideas to write on a forum,then just leave it.the guy who says about me making a spelling mistake,(which i find a bit unfair as for a german my english isnt that terrible):And what the point of the quote that i come from austria,wow how interesting.....sad.

I can tell you from my personal experience as a high handicapper that where I cost myself the most strokes is inconsistency in my long game.  Tee shots OOB or into spots where I have to either chip out or take an unplayable lie penalty.  Fat second shots that only go 40 yards, or duffed off to the side into trouble, costing me more strokes.  Approach shots either skulled or hit fat, missing the green and getting me into more trouble.  Conventional course management philosophy is to leave yourself an approach shot that's a full swing with a wedge or short iron - I usually don't follow that advice because I'm better and more consistent with a quarter- or half-swing with my 9-iron or pitching wedge than I am with a full swing sand/lob wedge.  My GIR% in my last 20 rounds is around 16%.

I average right around 1.9 putts per hole over my last 20 rounds, with usually no more than two or three 3-putts per round.  I can get out of a bunker and onto the green in one stroke most of the time (although usually not close to the pin).  My chipping and pitching need work so I can get up and down more often, but more often than not I can at least get the ball onto the putting surface in the general direction of the pin.  Sure, I'm leaving some strokes on the course with my short game - but shaving off a putt here or there isn't exactly going to do wonders for my score/handicap when it cost me 6 strokes to get on the green of a par 4 in the first place.  A sand save on a par 3 isn't much of a "save" when I'm hitting 4 out of the bunker.

I think if you look at most high 'cappers, you're not going to find many who consistently blast 300-yard drives down the middle of the fairway, hit an iron to within 6 feet of the pin, then 4-putt.  It's far more likely that they're struggling off the tees, hitting very few GIR and costing themselves a lot of penalty strokes from an erratic/inconsistent long game.  I agree 100% with Erik and those who say that the short game is easier to learn and easier to maintain.  I've been golfing for 25 years, but only this year have I made a concerted, committed effort to improve beyond being a hack content to shoot 110 every time I play.  My short game, while I certainly wouldn't call it "spectacular" or even "good" at this point, has improved markedly in the last 3 1/2 months.  My long game is still the plague of my existence and a source of endless frustration.  I've brought my scores down from averaging in the mid-100's to averaging in the mid/high 90's, but I don't expect to break that barrier of consistently getting into the 80's until I can start hitting more GIRs.

[Jakester23]

Mmoan2 read what I wrote I said I'd take that many GIR's not that's what I'm doing and I do play the tips I don't understand why people play any anything else. The courses I play a bad drive like your saying is OB so I'd rather have the straight one and make bogey then be hitting 3 from the tee and having to scramble my ass of to save the hole.

[Dave H]

I can tell you from my personal experience as a high handicapper that where I cost myself the most strokes is inconsistency in my long game.  Tee shots OOB or into spots where I have to either chip out or take an unplayable lie penalty.  Fat second shots that only go 40 yards, or duffed off to the side into trouble, costing me more strokes.  Approach shots either skulled or hit fat, missing the green and getting me into more trouble.  Conventional course management philosophy is to leave yourself an approach shot that's a full swing with a wedge or short iron - I usually don't follow that advice because I'm better and more consistent with a quarter- or half-swing with my 9-iron or pitching wedge than I am with a full swing sand/lob wedge.  My GIR% in my last 20 rounds is around 16%.    I average right around 1.9 putts per hole over my last 20 rounds, with usually no more than two or three 3-putts per round.  I can get out of a bunker and onto the green in one stroke most of the time (although usually not close to the pin).  My chipping and pitching need work so I can get up and down more often, but more often than not I can at least get the ball onto the putting surface in the general direction of the pin.  Sure, I'm leaving some strokes on the course with my short game - but shaving off a putt here or there isn't exactly going to do wonders for my score/handicap when it cost me 6 strokes to get on the green of a par 4 in the first place.  A sand save on a par 3 isn't much of a "save" when I'm hitting 4 out of the bunker.  I think if you look at most high 'cappers, you're not going to find many who consistently blast 300-yard drives down the middle of the fairway, hit an iron to within 6 feet of the pin, then 4-putt.  It's far more likely that they're struggling off the tees, hitting very few GIR and costing themselves a lot of penalty strokes from an erratic/inconsistent long game.  I agree 100% with Erik and those who say that the short game is easier to learn and easier to maintain.  I've been golfing for 25 years, but only this year have I made a concerted, committed effort to improve beyond being a hack content to shoot 110 every time I play.  My short game, while I certainly wouldn't call it "spectacular" or even "good" at this point, has improved markedly in the last 3 1/2 months.  My long game is still the plague of my existence and a source of endless frustration.  I've brought my scores down from averaging in the mid-100's to averaging in the mid/high 90's, but I don't expect to break that barrier of consistently getting into the 80's until I can start hitting more GIRs.

As a 20, I completely agree with you. It's the long game that causes my high scores. I might have 1, maybe 2 bad holes due to poor short game. But I probably have 5-6 bad holes per round due to bad long game. You can't score par if you're not getting on the green until your 4th or 5th shot.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

I certainly don't think it will hurt one's game to spend some time practicing short game shots on the course, as long as they spend ample time keeping up with the full swing as well.

I don't either. I'm just saying it's not necessary - you can certainly practice stuff in your putting green.

Heck, I think a big part of why my short game is good is because I spent so much time as a kid in my back yard pitching from here to that tree, or from this spot around my house to the mailbox, or whatever. No green, grass that was very much like rough (and I'd give myself good and bad lies), etc.

Originally Posted by mmoan2

I think you're right, I may be a little robotic (another reason I have moved away from Pelz), but I believe my touch/feel will be earned on the course and not the practice area. That's what I'm going to do (as well as practice fades, awkward lies, hooks, etc. with full swing) this summer, and if I come back in 3 months and tell you I'm still hitting 83 on a muni course because my short game is inadequate, you can say I told you so for the whole forum to see! See you in September!

I'm not taking that bet. You're going from neglecting your short game to practicing it (anywhere). It should improve.

I will just disagree that you need to "earn" it on the golf course. I haven't been on a golf course in five months, and my short game held up just fine at the SoCal "tournament."

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by iacas

I will just disagree that you need to "earn" it on the golf course. I haven't been on a golf course in five months, and my short game held up just fine at the SoCal "tournament."

Exactly.  There is a reason it's called a "short game."  Short shots to targets is FAR different/easier to "get right" than a 45" long driver in your hand trying to hit a narrow fairway surrounded by several troublesome areas.

I spent the entire winter indoors hitting balls, working on the full swing and barely putted and had one of my best putting days during my first round the other day.  Chipping / pitching was also on par with last year before the winter started.  Why?  Because my FULL swing was in good shape from practicing it all winter.  FULL swing control absolutely transfers into chipping / pitching competence.

[mmoan2]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't either. I'm just saying it's not necessary - you can certainly practice stuff in your putting green.

Heck, I think a big part of why my short game is good is because I spent so much time as a kid in my back yard pitching from here to that tree, or from this spot around my house to the mailbox, or whatever. No green, grass that was very much like rough (and I'd give myself good and bad lies), etc.

I'm not taking that bet. You're going from neglecting your short game to practicing it (anywhere). It should improve.

I will just disagree that you need to "earn" it on the golf course. I haven't been on a golf course in five months, and my short game held up just fine at the SoCal "tournament."

Maybe if I had picked up a golf club before 20 years of age, I'd have your nuanced touch on the short game! Maybe for you practicing indoors works just fine, but somewhere deep down I feel like I need something else. What was it that Crash Davis said in Bull Durham - If you think you are winning because you're getting laid, or you're not getting laid, then you are. Maybe I need to start working on chipping in pink tights with a helicopter hat on, who knows? Anyway, I think we've killed this conversation enough. sorry to act like the last word freak on this one.

[cipher]

I found this floating out there that referenced statistics from an article in Golf Digest, if the numbers are in fact correct as posted in GD then this is how I would interpret it.  If someone could verify the actual article that would help.

A comparison of an 18 HC to a Scratch Player, numbers supposedly from Golf Digest in 2001 (“AP” is provided by me and not Golf Digest).

18HC               SCRATCH     VARIATION

GIR         3                          12                       9

MG        15                          6

UD%     17%                      77%                  60%

AP          14.55                  16.62                 2.07

MG= Missed Greens

UD%= Average of Greenside Up and Downs.

AP= Average number of pars per round assuming a 18HC putts as well as Scratch(both 2 putt a GIR), and assuming a 18hc improves his UD% to 77 the same as scratch. (personal calculation)

18HC=.77x15=11.55+3=14.66

Scratch=.77x6=4.62+12=16.62

So the 18HC is still 2.07 pars behind even if you instantly give him the scratch players short game.  This does not even take into account the number of increased penalty strokes a 18HC would take over a scratch player,  the increased likelihood he may three putt the three greens he actually hit, or the number of birdie putts a scratch player may make by hitting it closer to the pin, so the variation would be even larger.

These numbers would show that hitting more greens in regulation has the largest impact on the improvement of your game and should be where much of your practice time is devoted.

[iacas]

I don't know if the numbers say that. It doesn't factor in the fact that one of the biggest reasons the 18 HC's UD% is low is that they also leave themselves in TERRIBLE positions. So "instantly giving them 77%" tends to be a bogus way of figuring stuff like that out.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't know if the numbers say that. It doesn't factor in the fact that one of the biggest reasons the 18 HC's UD% is low is that they also leave themselves in TERRIBLE positions. So "instantly giving them 77%" tends to be a bogus way of figuring stuff like that out.

Isn't that a byproduct of poor ball-striking?  Or are you suggesting it could be course management?