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65/20/15 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time

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I'm curious about how the short game should be practiced. I've read where the old school chip is largely not used anymore ... is that correct? If so, is there any reason I should practice the chip and run vs a controlled pitch?I

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3 hours ago, Vespidae said:

I'm curious about how the short game should be practiced. I've read where the old school chip is largely not used anymore ... is that correct? If so, is there any reason I should practice the chip and run vs a controlled pitch?I

If you have a shot that more or less works for you, that's a good one to practice.  Otherwise, learning how to do a basic chip and a basic pitch, and how to, from a lot of different short game situations, get the ball onto the green (so that your next shot is a putt;  30' putt is preferred over a second short-game shot) is a good use of your time.  If you can get yourself to the point (pitching, chipping, and putting) where, from many short-game positions, you can get onto the green in such a position that a two-putt is likely, you're well on your way to a lower handicap.  The really good news is, once you get better at a few basic short game shots, they're fairly easy to maintain -- allowing you to spend time working on your full swing, which will lower your handicap quite a bit more. 

Here's a great thread on pitch technique: 

One last bit:  if you're 45 yards out, or 65 yards out, do you know what your plan is to get the ball on the green from there?  

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I'm not sure what "an old school chip" is, but I feel like I use an "old school chip" pretty often. I don't play it back in my stance, but I'll hinge and hold with a forward leaning shaft.

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure what "an old school chip" is, but I feel like I use an "old school chip" pretty often. I don't play it back in my stance, but I'll hinge and hold with a forward leaning shaft.

IDK either, but my grandfather played in the 1935 US open and was the KC Kansas Champ. I add that to indicate that he knew what he was doing. I am pretty sure he would use a 6i or 7i from say 10 to 20 yards off the green and run it up to the flag. That is the kind of stuff he would show me. I think that was fairly common.

I know a decent golfer who grew up at Scioto CC (Jack's boyhood club) and he often uses a 4i from just off the green or fringe.

 

5 hours ago, Vespidae said:

I'm curious about how the short game should be practiced. I've read where the old school chip is largely not used anymore ... is that correct? If so, is there any reason I should practice the chip and run vs a controlled pitch?I

 

I never do that anymore. I like the 54* and 58* wedge.

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Old school chip is just a really weak pitch? 

I practise way more on the modern chip but that is just more secure. 

Chipping is a part that frustrates me. Use pitching metod is safer as its harder to duff it but can easilly get overpowered and harder to create backspin. The new metod is more pro but frustratingly easy to fail and leave no room for error. 

I am so close to surrendering a wedge for a chipper. That way you can use a simplified pitching motion also known as puttning. I have played with a cheap chipper and it does work. For longer ranges it fast get i precise but then you generally can use an easy pitch where its okay to use some muscles to secure good contact. 

However can do way more with a wedge and better feel but so tired of loosing strikes on what bar puttning should be the easiest stroke. 

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27 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure what "an old school chip" is, but I feel like I use an "old school chip" pretty often. I don't play it back in my stance, but I'll hinge and hold with a forward leaning shaft.

My understanding is that an "Old school" chip is using an 8, 7 or 6 iron and letting that sucker run.

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2 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

My understanding is that an "Old school" chip is using an 8, 7 or 6 iron and letting that sucker run.

Correct.

I was pretty good with the chip and run but I'm reconsidering. My course has three tier greens and you must, must, must get to the correct tier or you will have a very difficult putt. 

So ... I made a list of 12 shots that I can play from 30 yards and in depending on the lie and the pin location. 

Here's how I dug my hole. I spent Sunday calculating my carry to run distances for all my chips. After I was done, I researched it and compared it to typical charts and as I did, one of the articles mentioned that with the slopes on today's greens, that "chip and run" is not a shot that is used much anymore. Instead, most players use a single club (52 or 56) for all the shots around the green and vary the trajectory and the swing length to flop the distance. 

This was an "a-ha!" moment for me as I remember a tour player on Mark Immelman's podcast who said the same thing ... and that got me thinking. 

So here is what I practice ...

< 10 yards: Chip Putt (a la Paul Runyan)

10 - 20 yards: Basic pitch, trap pitch, trail edge pitch (all the same shot, only thing that changes is the trajectory), downhill version/uphill version, flop shot (as in over a bunker)

20 - 40 yards: 1/2 wedge (sw) from fairway, and from rough

40 - 60 yards: 3/4 wedge (SW)

40 - 100 yards: low spinner

Short sand (less than 30 feet), long sand 

Does this make sense? Or am I overdoing it? I feel like if I'm inside 30, I can score. In 25 rounds this year, my putting average is <2 from nGIR so I feel like even if I miss the green, I can still score and my confidence has soared as a result.

I welcome thoughts. 

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7 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

My understanding is that an "Old school" chip is using an 8, 7 or 6 iron and letting that sucker run.

Oh I thought that was the modern chip. Ball back in the stance to deloft and duff the ball if you are not careful  no matter how much weight you put on your front leg and use whatever iron that seems appropriate for the distance and clearing the fringe :

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Been reading the first 10-12 pages and I do have some questions.

For me as a complete amateur who wants to become better, have the time for practicing but just wants the right kind of practice, I am wondering if I should follow 65/20/15.

I am sure that it is my long-game that I am doing my most strokes on. But - should I get my driver into play asap (by practicing, practicing, practicing on DR) or learn my 5 iron and tee off with that? My tee driver/hybrid-shots often goes into the woods. At the same time I sometimes 3 putt.

The only clubs I feel (more) comfortable with is my wedges and 7/8/9 iron. Any guidance? 🙂

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Just now, louisfr said:

Been reading the first 10-12 pages and I do have some questions.

For me as a complete amateur who wants to become better, have the time for practicing but just wants the right kind of practice, I am wondering if I should follow 65/20/15.

I am sure that it is my long-game that I am doing my most strokes on. But - should I get my driver into play asap (by practicing, practicing, practicing on DR) or learn my 5 iron and tee off with that? My tee driver/hybrid-shots often goes into the woods. At the same time I sometimes 3 putt.

The only clubs I feel (more) comfortable with is my wedges and 7/8/9 iron. Any guidance? 🙂

Getting the most distance off the tee is important. I used to take 4 iron off every tee because I knew that it would be in play and 180-190 yards out. After doing some reading and learning about strokes gained, I realized I was losing a lot of shots by not getting the ball as far as I could off the tee. If I were you, I would prioritize getting the driver/wood/hybrid shots down, at least to the point where you can find them 90+ percent of the time.

Obviously 3 putting is bad, but if you put in the 15% time as mentioned, you should see a great improvement in this as well. Try to focus on where the 3 putt originates from. Some people 3 putt because they can't find the right line from 4-6 feet, or can't start it on the right line, where others 3 putt because they don't have good distance control on their first putt. It could be a combination of those things as well, but if you are one or the other, focus your time there.

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2 hours ago, louisfr said:

For me as a complete amateur who wants to become better, have the time for practicing but just wants the right kind of practice, I am wondering if I should follow 65/20/15.

To answer, question, I would say yes.

Like you, I am an amateur who wants to get better. After reading LSW and all the pages in this thread ... I completely overhauled my practice plan and redid it using 65/25/10 principles. My handicap has dropped 8 strokes and I have a very detailed plan for each practice.

I don’t see any value hitting the driver right now. Develop the right swing mechanics with the higher lofted clubs and as those straighten out, you can add length. I struggled with the driver and decided hitting from the fairway was better than OB.

The good news is that you are still working on the full swing and that’s what matters. 
 

Again, 65/25/10 has transformed how I think and plan for the game. I highly recommend it.

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21 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

To answer, question, I would say yes.

Like you, I am an amateur who wants to get better. After reading LSW and all the pages in this thread ... I completely overhauled my practice plan and redid it using 65/25/10 principles. My handicap has dropped 8 strokes and I have a very detailed plan for each practice.

I don’t see any value hitting the driver right now. Develop the right swing mechanics with the higher lofted clubs and as those straighten out, you can add length. I struggled with the driver and decided hitting from the fairway was better than OB.

The good news is that you are still working on the full swing and that’s what matters. 
 

Again, 65/25/10 has transformed how I think and plan for the game. I highly recommend it.

Thanks! You don't think hitting driver on the range is a good idea and just practice practice practice? Would you care to tell me your practice plan when you started doing the 65-25-10?

With higher lofted clubs, do you mean 7+ irons?

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

Getting the most distance off the tee is important. I used to take 4 iron off every tee because I knew that it would be in play and 180-190 yards out. After doing some reading and learning about strokes gained, I realized I was losing a lot of shots by not getting the ball as far as I could off the tee. If I were you, I would prioritize getting the driver/wood/hybrid shots down, at least to the point where you can find them 90+ percent of the time.

Obviously 3 putting is bad, but if you put in the 15% time as mentioned, you should see a great improvement in this as well. Try to focus on where the 3 putt originates from. Some people 3 putt because they can't find the right line from 4-6 feet, or can't start it on the right line, where others 3 putt because they don't have good distance control on their first putt. It could be a combination of those things as well, but if you are one or the other, focus your time there.

Cheers!  I really do want to get my driver into my game. Is it smart to start with hybrid from tee instead of lets say iron 4? As the lower clubs I'm having a lot of trouble with at the moment. Or should I just stick to iron clubs and learn them all? I know the end goal is to be able to play all clubs, I just need to know in which order I should do it now when I am having trouble with both. 🙂

 

 

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3 minutes ago, louisfr said:

Cheers!  I really do want to get my driver into my game. Is it smart to start with hybrid from tee instead of lets say iron 4? As the lower clubs I'm having a lot of trouble with at the moment. Or should I just stick to iron clubs and learn them all? I know the end goal is to be able to play all clubs, I just need to know in which order I should do it now when I am having trouble with both. 🙂

I think that the driver is very important. If you are newer to the game I would stay away from irons 5 and longer (if you have them). Typically we don't say lower or higher for irons. Try to use short and long, which describes both distance and the physical length of the club. If you have the time, when you have range sessions I would start with say 10-15 balls driver, 10-15 balls hybrid, 10-15 balls 6 or 7 iron, 10-15 balls 9 iron or PW. You can also do this in reverse order, and I think that most people do, but you may find your concentration waning after the first 30-40 balls and since you need to get your driver in order, that is why I would start there. After that you can hit the practice green for 20 minutes or so, spending a little over half on chipping (if that is available) and the rest on putting. This should give you about an hour of practice, adhering pretty close to the 65/20/15 rule. If the driver is that big of a problem, you may spend a bit more time on that the first couple of times.

I hope this helps. Straightening your driver to where it is playable on most holes should be a big priority. Hitting a tee shot 160-170 yards in the middle of the fairway is almost always worse than hitting a driver 200+, as long as the drive can be found.

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9 minutes ago, louisfr said:

Thanks! You don't think hitting driver on the range is a good idea and just practice practice practice? Would you care to tell me your practice plan when you started doing the 65-25-10?

With higher lofted clubs, do you mean 7+ irons?

I don’t. If you can’t properly strike, compress and fly a sand wedge, what’s hitting a driver going to do for you? If you are off on face angle, you are in the woods. A lot.

I began my 65/25/10 journey using a sand wedge almost exclusively with the sole intent to swing the club correctly, make solid contact, and finish with good balance. Today, I hit all my clubs on a schedule and yes ... I hit a driver the most, but I didn’t start there. 
 

It’s not practice, practice, practice. It’s intelligent practice. Right now, I’m focused on shot shape, not length. I keep detailed records on every round and that in turn, drives what I practice. 
 

My practice plan is MWF, full swing and TThSa short game+putting. 50 balls with the full swing and 40 ea on putting and short game equals 65/25/10. 
 

The most significant change for me was going from 3 basic short game shots to 12 as I’m trying to improve my scrambling. 
 

Get a spreadsheet out and decide how many a week you can practice and then allocate it out. I’ve learned a lot just doing that and when I compare to my actual playing stats ... it’s very illuminating.

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2 hours ago, Vespidae said:

I don’t see any value hitting the driver right now. Develop the right swing mechanics with the higher lofted clubs and as those straighten out, you can add length.

I disagree with this advice. A fairly new golfer isn’t going to be hitting a long iron off the tee much better than they would hit their driver. Even if you half swing a chippy driver just to keep the ball in play, it will probably go farther than the iron.

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58 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I think that the driver is very important. If you are newer to the game I would stay away from irons 5 and longer (if you have them). Typically we don't say lower or higher for irons. Try to use short and long, which describes both distance and the physical length of the club. If you have the time, when you have range sessions I would start with say 10-15 balls driver, 10-15 balls hybrid, 10-15 balls 6 or 7 iron, 10-15 balls 9 iron or PW. You can also do this in reverse order, and I think that most people do, but you may find your concentration waning after the first 30-40 balls and since you need to get your driver in order, that is why I would start there. After that you can hit the practice green for 20 minutes or so, spending a little over half on chipping (if that is available) and the rest on putting. This should give you about an hour of practice, adhering pretty close to the 65/20/15 rule. If the driver is that big of a problem, you may spend a bit more time on that the first couple of times.

I hope this helps. Straightening your driver to where it is playable on most holes should be a big priority. Hitting a tee shot 160-170 yards in the middle of the fairway is almost always worse than hitting a driver 200+, as long as the drive can be found.

Thank you! I see, calling them short and long irons makes more sense. It seems like a very good and simple way of doing the 65-20-15 rule. Exactly what I needed, greatly appreciated! Very excited to start this.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

I don’t. If you can’t properly strike, compress and fly a sand wedge, what’s hitting a driver going to do for you? If you are off on face angle, you are in the woods. A lot.

Interesting, isn't it going to make me get better shots off tee sooner rather than later if I start with the driver now (on DR)? Not saying you're wrong I am the amateur here

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5 minutes ago, louisfr said:

Interesting, isn't it going to make me get better shots off tee sooner rather than later if I start with the driver now (on DR)? Not saying you're wrong I am the amateur here

The important thing is to work on the Full Swing. I chose to do it by working mechanics and compression by using a sand wedge. While ai doubt you will be successful by starting with a driver, it’s up to you to figure it out. 
 

If you are in Sweden, the Swedish Golf Federation has published some excellent manuals. Jimmy Ballard consulted with them and you can see a lot of his theories in Swedish golfers.

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25 minutes ago, billchao said:

I disagree with this advice. A fairly new golfer isn’t going to be hitting a long iron off the tee much better than they would hit their driver.

You can play bogey golf with a 7 iron and a putter. If you can’t hit the easier, lofted clubs ... why would a student practice the harder clubs? Get the mechanics right. That’s the point of deliberate practice.

There are a number of paths to the top of the mountain. 

 

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