It's 2012

[jamo]

What he said. + do AIM Pointers really carry around a digital level while palying rounds?

Once you practice a bit, it's amazing how fast your body can pick out 1%, 2%, 3% and 4% slopes. [quote name="lonewolf" url="/t/59658/its-2012/30_30#post_732309"] My questions stands:  My feet are going to tell me where to aim?  Another poster (Well01) seems to think NO, while others think yes. [/quote] Myself, TST users gwlee7 and Deryk Griffith (and his friend) attended an AimPoint clinic this morning taught by iacas and David Wedzik. Deryk was finding straight uphill while looking at the sky .

[B-Con]

iacas was replying DIRECTLY to my post about playing different greens and local rules of thumb and interjecting AIm Point.  For you not to get that...well...it's not worth the effort to explain it.  Unless you just didn't read the posts.

He said he had a tool that was easy and (in the next post) reliable for him to use. I still don't get your complaint. He said that he has the ability to use something. He didn't say that you should throw away everything else. There are two topics: The fact that iacas says he (and others) can read greens with their feet. This has been mentioned. Then there's a bunch of nonsense about throwing away all other techniques and ignoring rules of thumb when they apply in the absence of better information. This hasn't been brought up. You're mixing the two up. Like I said, stick to the [i]ability[/i] to and [i]reliability[/i] of reading greens with the feet. That's the only thing that's actually been mentioned. [i]If[/i] it is reliable, then it's trustworthiness is held in comparison to all other tools. But you can't argue about that until you address the basics.

[iacas]

lonewolf, I can use my feet to determine direction of slope and help me determine amount of slope. Knowing the distance of my putt (not difficult) and the speed of the greens that day (also not difficult), I can determine the amount of break surprisingly well. I helped some guys out today, and it's a course where "local knowledge" is that "all putts break to the lake." The lake is more than three miles away. It's inaccurate. I have played that course for years. The local knowledge is wrong on several occasions. Read up, or don't. I don't really care. I think it's obvious to most that you're taking everything to weird extremes, and that you don't really understand that which you're arguing against. But AimPoint or not, that wasn't the point I was making in the original post, and I'd prefer that this topic get back on topic (even though that "topic" is "things I can't believe still exist in 2012").

[gwlee7]

Contempt prior to investigation is alive and well in 2012.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by B-Con

He said he had a tool that was easy and (in the next post) reliable for him to use.

I still don't get your complaint. He said that he has the ability to use something. He didn't say that you should throw away everything else.

There are two topics: The fact that iacas says he (and others) can read greens with their feet. This has been mentioned. Then there's a bunch of nonsense about throwing away all other techniques and ignoring rules of thumb when they apply in the absence of better information. This hasn't been brought up. You're mixing the two up.

Like I said, stick to the ability to and reliability of reading greens with the feet. That's the only thing that's actually been mentioned. If it is reliable, then it's trustworthiness is held in comparison to all other tools. But you can't argue about that until you address the basics.

Apparently you didn't read or don't comprehend.

iacas said he can use AIM point to tell breaks in a course he has never played. Post #23.  THis was in response to previous posts about local knowledge having to be a factor.

Why you don't get that / or don't want to get that is a you problem.

I am sure using the feet to read greens is helpful.  I'm not buying that AIM point will tell me how to read greens I have never played (again, Mr. non-comprehension:Posts #19 and 23)

"stick to the ability to and reliability of reading greens with the feet.  That's the only thing that's actually been mentioned" --Um.  I'm not sure English is your first language.  OR you just conveniently forgetting AIm Point?

Here's the crux:

The OP put out several thoughts.  One would assume to initiate discussion.  IT seems, however, if one is not completely sold on one of the products in those thoughts that feathers get ruffled.

I replied to one particular part to the OP being this; and people who still believe that greens must all break "towards" or "away" from something that's 20 miles or 2 miles or 40 yards away from where they're putting."

As a matter of fact I agreed with the statement, in general.  My point was regarding going from familiar greens to never-played greens.

From there the conversation delved into Aim Point and feet reading greens.  I happen to disagree that either or both of those will not always be (by iteslf) a way to better read greens one has never played.  You, iacas and boogie seem to think so.  Good for yall.

That brings me to the next point:  the OP mentioned that there are still many "club hos" out there.  I happen to agree.  I also think there are some AIMP Point hos on this forum.  Whenver I read "It's that simple" then I believe there is some "ho'ing" going on.

[Leftygolfer]

Originally Posted by gwlee7

Contempt prior to investigation is alive and well in 2012.

Holder?  Sure, no reason at all.  He was perfectly compliant and honest with Congress.  Only had to retract statements 3 times.  But if you want to debate please start a thread.  This isn't the right one for that.

[nevets88]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Holder?  Sure, no reason at all.  He was perfectly compliant and honest with Congress.  Only had to retract statements 3 times.  But if you want to debate please start a thread.  This isn't the right one for that.

No politics please...

[gwlee7]

Easy guys. I just spent three days with the president and he approved this message.:-)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Apparently you didn't read or don't comprehend.

iacas said he can use AIM point to tell breaks in a course he has never played. Post #23.  THis was in response to previous posts about local knowledge having to be a factor.

Yep. I can. Played a course I've never seen today and read the greens well all day.

I don't bother to ask what the "local knowledge" is because I don't need it. In my experience, the local knowledge is wrong too often to be useful.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

I am sure using the feet to read greens is helpful.  I'm not buying that AIM point will tell me how to read greens I have never played (again, Mr. non-comprehension:Posts #19 and 23)

What others are not quite saying is that it's painfully obvious that you don't understand AimPoint at all.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

I replied to one particular part to the OP being this;  and people who still believe that greens must all break "towards" or "away" from something that's 20 miles or 2 miles or 40 yards away from where they're putting."

As a matter of fact I agreed with the statement, in general.  My point was regarding going from familiar greens to never-played greens.

Yep. In other words, local knowledge isn't usually all that bright. I don't use local knowledge on greens I've never seen OR on greens I know really really well. It's wrong almost as often as it's right. I employ a better method. There are others out there, I suppose, but "local knowledge" ranks pretty low on the list as far as I can tell.

"Everything breaks towards Rae's Creek." Really? Cuz #10 doesn't even do that, and only a few greens at Augusta National break towards Rae's Creek. Yet you hear it all the time. Lake Merced during the U.S. Open is another example. It's bogus.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

That brings me to the next point:  the OP mentioned that there are still many "club hos" out there.  I happen to agree.  I also think there are some AIMP Point hos on this forum.  Whenver I read "It's that simple" then I believe there is some "ho'ing" going on.

But really, you're just guessing. You don't know what AimPoint is, how it works, etc. And that's fine, but it makes your opinion an uniformed one.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Holder?  Sure, no reason at all.  He was perfectly compliant and honest with Congress.  Only had to retract statements 3 times.  But if you want to debate please start a thread.  This isn't the right one for that.

Greg Lee's response was relevant to this thread, not whatever you're talking about. Specifically, he was talking about our pal LW here.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Apparently you didn't read or don't comprehend.

iacas said he can use AIM point to tell breaks in a course he has never played. Post #23.  THis was in response to previous posts about local knowledge having to be a factor.

Yep. I can. Played a course I've never seen today and read the greens well all day.

I don't bother to ask what the "local knowledge" is because I don't need it. In my experience, the local knowledge is wrong too often to be useful.

--Good for you.  Now explain that to B-Con as he can't seem to comprehend.

Did you carry a level with you?

Originally Posted by lonewolf

I am sure using the feet to read greens is helpful.  I'm not buying that AIM point will tell me how to read greens I have never played (again, Mr. non-comprehension:Posts #19 and 23)

What others are not quite saying is that it's painfully obvious that you don't understand AimPoint at all.

--It's painfully obvious Ithat 'm not going to be ho'ed into buying AIM point products.  I'm glad you like it.  Good for you.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

I replied to one particular part to the OP being this;  and people who still believe that greens must all break "towards" or "away" from something that's 20 miles or 2 miles or 40 yards away from where they're putting."

As a matter of fact I agreed with the statement, in general.  My point was regarding going from familiar greens to never-played greens.

Yep. In other words, local knowledge isn't usually all that bright. I don't use local knowledge on greens I've never seen OR on greens I know really really well. It's wrong almost as often as it's right. I employ a better method. There are others out there, I suppose, but "local knowledge" ranks pretty low on the list as far as I can tell.

"Everything breaks towards Rae's Creek." Really? Cuz #10 doesn't even do that, and only a few greens at Augusta National break towards Rae's Creek. Yet you hear it all the time. Lake Merced during the U.S. Open is another example. It's bogus.

--for the most part; I agree with you.  Doesn't mean I beleive taht AIM point is going to be THE solution.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

That brings me to the next point:  the OP mentioned that there are still many "club hos" out there.  I happen to agree.  I also think there are some AIMP Point hos on this forum.  Whenver I read "It's that simple" then I believe there is some "ho'ing" going on.

But really, you're just guessing. You don't know what AimPoint is, how it works, etc. And that's fine, but it makes your opinion an uniformed one.

--And it makes your opinion a ho'ing one.  The suggestion that I have to become completely knowledgeable in AIM point to dispute it is specious.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Good for you.  Now explain that to B-Con as he can't seem to comprehend.

Did you carry a level with you?

He comprehends things just fine. You're the one blowing things massively out of proportion (and looking dumb doing it).

No, I didn't carry a level. Why would I? You clearly don't understand how AimPoint works.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

--It's painfully obvious Ithat 'm not going to be ho'ed into buying AIM point products.  I'm glad you like it.  Good for you.

That's fine. I don't really care. It's your loss.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

--for the most part; I agree with you.  Doesn't mean I beleive taht AIM point is going to be THE solution.

You don't know, though, because you don't even know what AimPoint really is.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

But really, you're just guessing. You don't know what AimPoint is, how it works, etc. And that's fine, but it makes your opinion an uniformed one.

--And it makes your opinion a ho'ing one.  The suggestion that I have to become completely knowledgeable in AIM point to dispute it is specious.

No, it makes my opinion an informed one. And I never said you had to become "completely knowledgeable." You seem to like to exaggerate wildly and put a lot of words in people's mouths.

Don't go learn anything about AimPoint. I don't really care. But don't profess that it's lousy or "not the solution" when a) you don't know anything about it, and b) nobody said it was "THE" solution. That's plenty of discussion on this now.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't bother to ask what the "local knowledge" is because I don't need it. In my experience, the local knowledge is wrong too often to be useful.

The members [read: my father-in-law and his friends] of one of the courses I play frequently like to talk about the "Moulton Effect" all the time in regards to the breaks on the greens.  Is it a mountain?  Nope.  Is it a lake or river?  Nope.  It's a friggin' street.

I can, at least, appreciate the origin of the 'break away from mountain' or 'towards the ocean' corollaries since the lay of the land is quite possibly, generally, sloping those directions, but a man-made street?  Come on.  Every single time I miss a putt on the "street" side of the hole;  "Ah, you forgot about the Moulton Effect."

Oy.

[B-Con]

The members [read: my father-in-law and his friends] of one of the courses I play frequently like to talk about the "Moulton Effect" all the time in regards to the breaks on the greens.  Is it a mountain?  Nope.  Is it a lake or river?  Nope.  It's a friggin' street. I can, at least, appreciate the origin of the 'break away from mountain' or 'towards the ocean' corollaries since the lay of the land is quite possibly, generally, sloping those directions, but a man-made street?  Come on.  Every single time I miss a putt on the "street" side of the hole;  "Ah, you forgot about the Moulton Effect." Oy.

Yeah, confirmation bias is probably the biggest reason why myths, or bad rules of thumb, prevail. Three greens in a row break in a certain direction, and a handful of other ones do, and suddenly it's well-known knowledge that that's how all the greens break. Every time someone misses on that side, they instantly remember that's the direction the greens break. But when it's missed to the other side, well, that's not worth remembering. :-P

[iacas]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Yeah, confirmation bias is probably the biggest reason why myths, or bad rules of thumb, prevail. Three greens in a row break in a certain direction, and a handful of other ones do, and suddenly it's well-known knowledge that that's how all the greens break. Every time someone misses on that side, they instantly remember that's the direction the greens break. But when it's missed to the other side, well, that's not worth remembering.

Exactly this. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

It's like when you buy a new car or you investigate buying a certain model of car. Before, you never saw them, but as soon as you consider buying one, they're everywhere!

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by jamo

Once you practice a bit, it's amazing how fast your body can pick out 1%, 2%, 3% and 4% slopes.

Myself, TST users gwlee7 and Deryk Griffith (and his friend) attended an AimPoint clinic this morning taught by iacas and David Wedzik. Deryk was finding straight uphill while looking at the sky.

Yes I was!  And it was the best money I've ever spent in golf.

IMO, everyone should invest in an Aimpoint Clinic prior to buying the latest and greatest in new golf technology.  I can guarantee you'll be enlightened.

[mvmac]

The green line on TV does pretty good without any local knowledge

[colin007]

Soooo...are you saying that i'm not really hitting a "trap-draw"?;-)

[onesome]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

The members [read: my father-in-law and his friends] of one of the courses I play frequently like to talk about the "Moulton Effect" all the time in regards to the breaks on the greens.  Is it a mountain?  Nope.  Is it a lake or river?  Nope.  It's a friggin' street.

I can, at least, appreciate the origin of the 'break away from mountain' or 'towards the ocean' corollaries since the lay of the land is quite possibly, generally, sloping those directions, but a man-made street?  Come on.  Every single time I miss a putt on the "street" side of the hole;  "Ah, you forgot about the Moulton Effect."

Oy.

LOL we have one of those roads at my course too however theres a mountain exactly opposite the road so maybe everything breaks away from the mountain and not really towards the road?