commonalities of pros..........maybe not

[logman]

How do I translate the 5 keys into the swing I'm currently learning when some of the keys run against what I'm trying to learn. OK, so steady head ...well OK, sure . But weight forward....mmm, no, My LPG swing requires me stand flat footed with my weight on my back foot. "flat left wrist", well I'm playing with a flat left(right) Forearm, so, no "key" there. And "clubface control" , hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver, aren't we supposed to be hitting on the up for better distance. and even with the LPG swing the swing path is very shallow with very long shallow divots. sometimes I feel like I'm hitting on the up with a 7 iron. Maybe the 5 keys should be renamed "the 5 sort of keys that some players do sometimes when they're trying to swing like pro golfers do"

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman

How do I translate the 5 keys into the swing I'm currently learning when some of the keys run against what I'm trying to learn. OK, so steady head ...well OK, sure .

That's just it, there aren't any Keys that "run against" what you should be working on.  The Keys are based on factual information, not opinions.

There is no reason to intentionally not keep the head steady, to move it from side to side in the golf swing.  The average PGA Tour player moves his head one inch during his backswing and less on his downswing.  There are many reasons the best golfers maintain a steady head during their golf swing.

Originally Posted by logman

But weight forward....mmm, no, My LPG swing requires me stand flat footed with my weight on my back foot.

Weight Forward at impact.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure what LPG is but we know the average amateur has 55% of their pressure forward at impact while the the average PGA Tour player has between 80-95% of his pressure on his front foot at impact.

Originally Posted by logman

"flat left wrist", well I'm playing with a flat left(right) Forearm, so, no "key" there.

No good or great golfers "flip" at the ball a significant amount, and a flat left wrist helps to compress the ball to strike it "pure" every time.

Originally Posted by logman

And "clubface control" , hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver, aren't we supposed to be hitting on the up for better distance. and even with the LPG swing the swing path is very shallow with very long shallow divots. sometimes I feel like I'm hitting on the up with a 7 iron. Maybe the 5 keys should be renamed "the 5 sort of keys that some players do sometimes when they're trying to swing like pro golfers do"

Where does it say Key #5 is about a "descending blow"?  Key #5 begins with understanding the ball flight laws and concludes with applying the principles to your golf swing by learning to control the clubface.  There is a very good chance you're not hitting up with your 7 iron.

Obviously have to have some decent for irons and we very much agree in having a positive AoA for the driver, hitting up.  This thread was started a year and a half ago

http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern

[logman]

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

hahhahhhhhhhahhahahhhahhha.

Ahem.

You have no idea.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.

I certainly have no false hope that I will ever be able to hit like a pro, but the 5 basic principals are pretty universal. Regardless of your swing, if you work on these 5 things I believe you will improve. My swing is nothing like "the swing promoted here", but these 5 particular "keys" are still invaluable and things I work on because they are certainly applicable.

Originally Posted by logman

.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable.

If you would like to take the grip and wrists out of your swing I would say go right ahead! However you will not likely ever attain even a reasonable usable swing if you do.

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....

Yeah, who wants to flush the ball all day long.  That's just boring.  I just want to dig ditches for 18 holes.  That sounds like a WAY more fun way to play golf!

Originally Posted by logman

hitting with a descending blow....hang on no one does that with the driver,

I hear some dude named Tigger does that?  I hear he's a decent duffer too.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

What do the pros do better than nearly all amateurs? They get the same results out of their swing over and over.

What helps you to get the same result over and over? A swing that is easy to repeat.

So to get a swing that is easy to repeat, that will give me the same result as often as possible where am I going to look? At those who do it best, pros.

[bwdial]

I know what an RPG is - both definitions - but what the hell is an LPG?  Are you leaving off the A?

[newtogolf]

Pretty sure it's Lever Power Golf see logmans other post on it;  Seems he's promoting it or drank the kool-aid.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60285/kuykendalls-lpg-swing/0_30

Originally Posted by bwdial

I know what an RPG is - both definitions - but what the hell is an LPG?  Are you leaving off the A?

[Mr. Desmond]

Whatever works for this guy - but to come on here as he did is OB.

[mdl]

Yeah.  I saw the OP's other thread about lever power golf (LPG).  I looked for youtube vids of guys actually doing it and it all looked very unathletic and snake oily to me.  But whatever, it's not like there aren't other ways to physically swing a club, and some other method delivers repeatable results for you, then cool.

This post, however = LAME.  So the OP and 5 other guys are trying to swing the golf club in a totally different way.  The 5SK guys have a totally reasonable teaching philosophy and system for how every single other person who plays golf tries to swing (more or less).  The OP's original thread extolling the virtues of his preferred method is fine.  Here it's just unproductive.

Look at Rustyredcab and the Moe Norman swing guys.  They do a bunch of things differently from how Erik or Mike would teach.  They extoll the virtues of their chosen swing style and talk about how it's helped them.  If prompted they might discuss why they think some of the stuff in the more standard style swing is harder to repeat consistently.  They don't write vindictive, mean-spirited posts attacking others for having a different swing style.

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedf

I certainly have no false hope that I will ever be able to hit like a pro, but the 5 basic principals are pretty universal. Regardless of your swing, if you work on these 5 things I believe you will improve. My swing is nothing like "the swing promoted here", but these 5 particular "keys" are still invaluable and things I work on because they are certainly applicable.

Thanks.  With this game we are at the mercy of how the equipment is made.  Golf clubs are built to be hit with shaft lean (Key#3), and are built on a tilted angle (Key #4).

You don't have to hit the same exact numbers as the tour averages to play good golf, just gradually move towards improving your priority piece.  There isn't necessarily a 5 Simple Keys "swing" because swings from Jim Furyk to Matt Kuchar fulfill the 5 Keys.  Obviously very different looking swing but both keep their head steady, have the weight forward at impact, have a flat left wrist, swing the club on an inclined plane (different ends of the spectrum but neither is "straight back and straight through") and both understand their pattern and know how to align their body and clubface to accommodate for certain shots.  I'm saying this because if a student came to us with an unique backswing, like Furyk, and consistently hit it solid, we wouldn't change it to just to make the picture look better.  Now if the unique backswing consistently caused problems then you'd have to make a move towards a motion that would produce less compensations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

This post, however = LAME.  So the OP and 5 other guys are trying to swing the golf club in a totally different way.  The 5SK guys have a totally reasonable teaching philosophy and system for how every single other person who plays golf tries to swing (more or less).  The OP's original thread extolling the virtues of his preferred method is fine.  Here it's just unproductive.

Look at Rustyredcab and the Moe Norman swing guys.  They do a bunch of things differently from how Erik or Mike would teach.  They extoll the virtues of their chosen swing style and talk about how it's helped them.  If prompted they might discuss why they think some of the stuff in the more standard style swing is harder to repeat consistently.  They don't write vindictive, mean-spirited posts attacking others for having a different swing style.

Thanks.  Here is a quote from Chuck Evans and I think he does a great job of explaining the values of a system.

Quote:

5SK takes what the greatest players in history have done and breaks it down to well...5 Simple Keys.

With the aid of the latest in technology, 3D Doppler Radar - Flightscope, 3D Motion Analysis - AMM 3D, and Pressure information from Swing Catalyst -3D motion plate system, people watching the DVD can see precisely how the body moves and the relationship between the body, clubface and clubhead.

5SK is not a "method" but rather a system that allows any "method" to be taught within it whether it is S&T;, One Plane two Plane, Natural Golf, Impact Zone, 8 Step Swing, TGM, MORAD etc.

By having this information the player, and the coach, can continue to use their preferred methodology within the 5SK.

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by logman

MMmmm. well I guess we're all striving to hit the ball like a "pga pro"????....well I'm not....well I'd love to be able to..... but I'm an everyday golfer, I'm not hugely talented, co-ordinated, with hours to spend on practice. So, Why not rethink the golf swing and get realistic. get real. the "pro Golfer"swing is ONE SWING....there are many other swings that golfers of different abilities,skills and dedications can put to use that would benifit them instead of trying to fit them up into this bullshit pro golfer swing. The golf swing that's being promoted in the 5 keys videos is the current "pro golfer" swing.  If the weekend hackers (and I'll include myself in that) on this site think that they're games will improve trying to master the most difficult of golf swings out there ...well good luck! you're chasing your tail. Basically it's co-ordination.....trying to co-ordinate a move that even the most talented atheletes have trouble mastering. Hips, arms, wrists, body, tempo, posture,balance, grip, blah blah blah. If ONE of those elements are "off"then you're in the bushes. Why not simplify the golf swing.....remove as many variables as we possibly can....take the grip out, the wrists, lag etc. Look for a swing type that is attainable. The swing being promoted here is not attainable by the everyday hacker,it's a myth being peddled by those who think the golf swing is a fundemental discipline. I reckon , get off the merry go round, be realistic about your game and your ability to master the same golf swing used by some of the most talented sportspeople around, and seek a different route. Single axis, LPG, Taly, natural Golf, E2E, HSS.....take your pick, any of these styles are much better suited to the average golfer that the "only"swing promoted here.

Your premise is false.  The pros don't employ the most difficult swing in golf, they employ the easiest swing in golf.  If you get more enjoyment from the game by employing a more difficult swing, that's another matter.  Perhaps you need more of a challenge to keep it interesting.  However, I suspect that the rest of the golfing world simply prefers to play the best golf they are able to play, rather than something less than their best.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Pretty sure it's Lever Power Golf see logmans other post on it;  Seems he's promoting it or drank the kool-aid.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60285/kuykendalls-lpg-swing/0_30

Ahh... okay... thanks.  I took a sip of that Kool-Aid about a decade and a half ago.  Didn't like the taste.

[boogielicious]

I thought it was Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I thought it was Liquefied Petroleum Gas.

For an explosive swing!!

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by mvmac

There is no reason to intentionally not keep the head steady, to move it from side to side in the golf swing.  The average PGA Tour player moves his head one inch during his backswing and less on his downswing.  There are many reasons the best golfers maintain a steady head during their golf swing.

Hey MvMac.... can you link me to any of the info you talk about here (studies or such). I am interested in how they worked out that info -  was it just to static postitions (e.g comparing set up to top of the swing) or was it through actually tracking the head movement of a player throughout the swing?

does this only apply to lateral head movement, or to up and down, forward and back head movement also?

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Hey MvMac.... can you link me to any of the info you talk about here (studies or such). I am interested in how they worked out that info -  was it just to static postitions (e.g comparing set up to top of the swing) or was it through actually tracking the head movement of a player throughout the swing?

does this only apply to lateral head movement, or to up and down, forward and back head movement also?

Lateral head movement, and as many or most of the studies we have are paid for, no, we can't link you to them. If there's public data on this I'm sure you're capable of finding it, but our data comes from things we've bought, so we're not at liberty to share them.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

I'm certain you're capable of finding YouTube videos of tour pros, no? This isn't really the thread for that.