Anchored Putters Rules Change (Effective January 1, 2016)

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Archie Bunker

Not a problem at all. Easy to fix with a hacksaw. Maybe there will be a cottage industry for making your belly or "long" putter legal in 2016.

There already is ... the USGA.  (Because those putters are currently, and always have been, and always will continue to be - for the foreseeable future - legal.)

Just don't anchor it.

[JerseyThursday]

Go back a few pages and Mvmac posted a detailed graphic of what is and what is not legal, but basically, what newtogolf said is correct;  The club (or your hand gripping the club) cannot be anchored against your body.  The guy in your picture is legal.

[COLOR=FF00AA][COLOR=FF00AA]The Royal and Ancient (R&A;) and United States Golf Association (USGA) on Wednesday proposed a new law to come into effect from January 1, 2016, prohibiting strokes made with the club held against the player's body, or with a forearm held against the body to establish an anchor point.[/COLOR][/COLOR] No forearms, but elbows are okay? Good grief.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Go back a few pages and Mvmac posted a detailed graphic of what is and what is not legal, but basically, what newtogolf said is correct;  The club (or your hand gripping the club) cannot be anchored against your body.  The guy in your picture is legal.

The Royal and Ancient (R&A;) and United States Golf Association (USGA) on Wednesday proposed a new law to come into effect from January 1, 2016, prohibiting strokes made with the club held against the player's body, or with a forearm held against the body to establish an anchor point.

No forearms, but elbows are okay?

Good grief.

You still don't get it.  What is at issue is a method which takes the hands out of the swing.  The elbow is far enough away that the hands still must be controlled by technique, rather than by bracing, anchoring or pivoting against the body.  Half of the skill involved in putting is in being able to rotate the hands, arms and shoulders in one piece to bring the putter back on the ball squarely and on plane.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

The Royal and Ancient (R&A;) and United States Golf Association (USGA) on Wednesday proposed a new law to come into effect from January 1, 2016, prohibiting strokes made with the club held against the player's body, or with a forearm held against the body to establish an anchor point.

No forearms, but elbows are okay?

Good grief.

Not sure where that quote came from?  Anyway, I don't think it's quite accurate because this graphic ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/62766/anchored-putters-rules-change-was-decision-coming-soon/150_30#post_787703 ...  that mvmac posted several pages ago shows that forearms braced are OK.  Just don't anchor the club or gripping hand against your body.

EDIT:  OK, I see it now.  It mentions in the graphic two different ways of using your forearm, one of which is legal, and one of which is not.  But I think the pictures make it pretty clear at least.

EDIT: added the pic for ya :-)

[JerseyThursday]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You still don't get it.  What is at issue is a method which takes the hands out of the swing.  The elbow is far enough away that the hands still must be controlled by technique, rather than by bracing, anchoring or pivoting against the body.  Half of the skill involved in putting is in being able to rotate the hands, arms and shoulders in one piece to bring the putter back on the ball squarely and on plane.

Do you do know the were the elbow ends and the forearm begins?
I sure as hell don’t.

Good article here.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/golf/adam-scotts-belly-putter-to-be-banned/story-e6frfgax-1226526203863

I don't want it to hang on (until 2016) ... if they're going to get rid of it, get rid of it," added the 53 year-old Queenslander who's used a broomstick since 1988.

"They've got some diagrams showing your elbow can't do this and your forearm can't be against this ... I mean seriously, how hard is it going to be to police all that?

"That's going to be the hardest thing, people accusing other people of not doing the right thing.

"It could turn into a real s**t fight."

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Do you do know the were the elbow ends and the forearm begins?

I sure as hell don’t.

Good article here.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/golf/adam-scotts-belly-putter-to-be-banned/story-e6frfgax-1226526203863

I don't want it to hang on (until 2016) ... if they're going to get rid of it, get rid of it," added the 53 year-old Queenslander who's used a broomstick since 1988.

"They've got some diagrams showing your elbow can't do this and your forearm can't be against this ... I mean seriously, how hard is it going to be to police all that?

"That's going to be the hardest thing, people accusing other people of not doing the right thing.

"It could turn into a real s**t fight."

I think this might qualify as a red herring because I don't know that I have ever seen anybody try these styles.

Seems like you can brace your elbows or forearms against your body, however, you can't brace them against your body to create a pivot point for the butt of the club.  Seems pretty straightforward, but who knows?

Another good reason for the rule to not take effect for 3 more years.  Anybody who was in need of an alternative putting style has ample time to tinker and experiment and figure out what they will and won't be able to do.

[newtogolf]

I agree, people are upset by the rule and coming up with all sorts of scenarios that they would never otherwise attempt to make the rule seem more confusing or obfuscated than it really is.  Fourputt stated the intent of the rule very well, it's not that complicated unless you make it.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think this might qualify as a red herring because I don't know that I have ever seen anybody try these styles.

Seems like you can brace your elbows or forearms against your body, however, you can't brace them against your body to create a pivot point for the butt of the club.  Seems pretty straightforward, but who knows?

Another good reason for the rule to not take effect for 3 more years.  Anybody who was in need of an alternative putting style has ample time to tinker and experiment and figure out what they will and won't be able to do.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I don't understand your point, we are talking about the Rules of Golf.  If someone doesn't putt out every single hole they aren't playing according to the rules, they shouldn't be submitting their score for handicap and they most likely will continue to anchor a belly putter to their body when they putt if they did before yesterday.

This rule affects people who play by the rules.  I doubt anyone that intentionally breaks the rules (by not putting out) bothers to spend the $20 to join the USGA in the first place.  If it's not Match play, I putt out every hole.  I don't submit my scores for handicap when I play a round of Match play, and I'm a crappy 20 handicap.  Some of us do follow the rules and when playing competitively we like to make sure everyone else playing follows the rules as well.

If you are covered by the USGA system then you are not playing by the rules.  You most definitely ARE supposed to post matchplay rounds, and the handicap manual tells you how to account for the differences between match play and stroke play for posting purposes.  I believe it may be otherwise if you are covered by the handicap systems in other countries.  But in the US it is clear that both stroke and match play rounds must be posted.

Originally Posted by dave67az

With all due respect, I have NEVER seen a yardage marker in a fairway or on a tee box that tells you how far you need to carry to clear a bunker or water hazard.  To say that the on-course markers are the same as GPS is ridiculous.

The point is that on course markers are not all you are limited to, under the rules.  You can compile all of the yardage information ahead of time, as pro caddies do, and have it with you and use it during a round.  The information is not illegal.  So then it becomes a matter not of information but of delivery method. Having a GPS or laser provides nothing that an extensive yardage book could not legally provide.  THAT is why I think the USGA position is not only correct, but too narrow when they do not allow the use of these devices in tournament situations.  Why should it matter if a player gets an exact yardage because he can afford an excellent caddy who has scoped out the course or he gets the exact same information from a GPS device?

[newtogolf]

Good to know.  My rounds and handicap are managed by my clubs system and submitted to USGA.  They have told us not to enter in match play scores, but I'll verify that.  I play only a few rounds of match play, but appreciate the information.  Thanks.

Originally Posted by turtleback

If you are covered by the USGA system then you are not playing by the rules.  You most definitely ARE supposed to post matchplay rounds, and the handicap manual tells you how to account for the differences between match play and stroke play for posting purposes.  I believe it may be otherwise if you are covered by the handicap systems in other countries.  But in the US it is clear that both stroke and match play rounds must be posted.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ThominOH

Wow.. are you really this ...

... sorry, didn't hear the rest of that post. Was too busy restricting you from the thread. :P

Originally Posted by MerVal

You guys are vastly oversimplifying the Casey Martin Ruling.

With all due respect, no, you seem to be misunderstanding the Casey Martin Ruling.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I understand your frustration, however I must address two points:

1) The "precedent", in case law, is determined when another case's findings have circumstances/facts identical or similar to the current issue before the court.  So all facts and events must be considered, not the arguments themselves.  In this matter, it IS a very different set of circumstances.  The court, in effect (and as I understand it), avoided taking on the rules of competition by determining that walking the course was not a part of the competition.  It's a subtle but important distinction from them actually determining that a rule of competition was unfair or should be changed.

Let me offer an analogy.  Imagine the NFL having a rule that players must be at a full sprint on-and-off the field of play (for whatever reason), including in between plays and going to and from the locker room.  In that type of case, one argument before the court might be that the Casey Martin case sets precedent here in determining that walking to and from the locker room is NOT a part of the sport and thus that action is not subject to rules from the NFL's competition committee.  The other side may argue that some facts make it substantially different...but that is getting too far off point.  IMO, that case would be similar.

However, the court hypothetically ruling that the NFL has no right to set the rules of Intentional Grounding or a Holding penalty is altogether different.  It is highly unlikely that a court would rule that a sport cannot govern actions that actually are a core function of the sport.  And it is highly unlikely that a persuasive argument could be made that the golf stroke, or the putting stroke is not a core function for participating in the sport.

2) There is no default burden of proof for the USGA (or whomever) to justify a rule-change with evidence or empirical data.  They don't have to prove it isn't a legal stroke, they can simply say it isn't a legal stroke.  The same way they simply said there were non-conforming grooves one year.  The same way the NFL said there was such thing as "illegal contact" one year.

Not surprising.  I figured the guys would complain about it, but only the most petulant among them would actually follow through with legal action.  I'm not sure they realize how bad the PR would be from that.  It would make them look like whiners.  These are not people that are anywhere near the sympathetic figure that Casey Martin was.

There you go. Quoted in full because it's worth seeing twice.

Originally Posted by dave67az

Apparently I need to play at better courses or something because on the some 30-odd courses I've played in my life, I can honestly say I've never seen this.  My apologies for my ignorance when it comes to yardage markers.

You have never seen a yardage book like these?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree, people are upset by the rule and coming up with all sorts of scenarios that they would never otherwise attempt to make the rule seem more confusing or obfuscated than it really is.  Fourputt stated the intent of the rule very well, it's not that complicated unless you make it.

I figure I'll just limit my own confusion on the matter by just saying, "f**k it, I'll just putt the 'traditional' way." Grip it and rip it!

Or does that not work for putting?

[mvmac]

[Texian]

Because I know so many on this forum are concerned about my mental welfare, here's how it's going today.

Just got in from the course. It was an incredible fall day in Southeast Texas. The trees are gorgeous, especially the black gums along both sides of the first hole.

Shot a 78 from the back tees, which is good for me. Would have had a 77 except I pushed a 2-foot putt on 12 when I had the thought, as I was in my putting backstroke, "Did I just brush my torso with my forearm, or was it just my shirt."  I ruled in my favor on that one. You can think I'm making that up if you want to, but I'm not. (If I had, of course, that would have been unintentional, and not subject to penalty.)

Also, to further explain my perspective on withholding membership dues in the USGA. I have no doubt that those in the majority in the USGA who support this decision are doing so with the best intentions. My withholding what little support I have is also with the best intention, because economics is the only possible way for this movement to change course at this point. If enough individuals, and tournament sponsors, and equipment manufacturers, and all those others from which the USGA draws its funding, would oppose this in the strongest way possible, then it could be overturned. All the feedback, logic, and opinions in the universe will have no affect at all. (Well, a lawsuit might.)

Best wishes to all on this forum, even those who ridiculed my position. Sticks and stones may break my bones, etc., but the only thing I'm concerned with now is finding shirts that fit loose enough and working out hard enough to keep a flat belly.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Texian

Also, to further explain my perspective on withholding membership dues in the USGA. I have no doubt that those in the majority in the USGA who support this decision are doing so with the best intentions. My withholding what little support I have is also with the best intention, because economics is the only possible way for this movement to change course at this point. If enough individuals, and tournament sponsors, and equipment manufacturers, and all those others from which the USGA draws its funding, would oppose this in the strongest way possible, then it could be overturned. All the feedback, logic, and opinions in the universe will have no affect at all. (Well, a lawsuit might.)

In regards to the bold part, it's simply not going to happen.

[Valleygolfer]

Quote:

Also, to further explain my perspective on withholding membership dues in the USGA. I have no doubt that those in the majority in the USGA who support this decision are doing so with the best intentions. My withholding what little support I have is also with the best intention, because economics is the only possible way for this movement to change course at this point. If enough individuals, and tournament sponsors, and equipment manufacturers, and all those others from which the USGA draws its funding, would oppose this in the strongest way possible, then it could be overturned. All the feedback, logic, and opinions in the universe will have no affect at all. (Well, a lawsuit might.)

Did you miss my 1% post. No one will care in a month or two. The "Big Easy" may still file his suit but there are no grounds.....honestly he does not deserve that nickname. Nothing shows me anything as of late that he is easy going.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Texian

Shot a 78 from the back tees, which is good for me. Would have had a 77 except I pushed a 2-foot putt on 12 when I had the thought, as I was in my putting backstroke, "Did I just brush my torso with my forearm, or was it just my shirt."  I ruled in my favor on that one. You can think I'm making that up if you want to, but I'm not. (If I had, of course, that would have been unintentional, and not subject to penalty.)

If we thought you were not making that up we would also have to think that you didn't know the difference between 2012 and 2016.  I'm going to cling to the conviction that you are a lot smarter than that, and that you are just being silly.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texian

Shot a 78 from the back tees, which is good for me. Would have had a 77 except I pushed a 2-foot putt on 12 when I had the thought, as I was in my putting backstroke, "Did I just brush my torso with my forearm, or was it just my shirt."  I ruled in my favor on that one. You can think I'm making that up if you want to, but I'm not. (If I had, of course, that would have been unintentional, and not subject to penalty.)

If we thought you were not making that up we would also have to think that you didn't know the difference between 2012 and 2016.  I'm going to cling to the conviction that you are a lot smarter than that, and that you are just being silly.

Turtle, it's called "sour grapes".

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Texian

Because I know so many on this forum are concerned about my mental welfare, here's how it's going today.

Just got in from the course. It was an incredible fall day in Southeast Texas. The trees are gorgeous, especially the black gums along both sides of the first hole.

Shot a 78 from the back tees, which is good for me. Would have had a 77 except I pushed a 2-foot putt on 12 when I had the thought, as I was in my putting backstroke, "Did I just brush my torso with my forearm, or was it just my shirt."  I ruled in my favor on that one. You can think I'm making that up if you want to, but I'm not. (If I had, of course, that would have been unintentional, and not subject to penalty.)

Also, to further explain my perspective on withholding membership dues in the USGA. I have no doubt that those in the majority in the USGA who support this decision are doing so with the best intentions. My withholding what little support I have is also with the best intention, because economics is the only possible way for this movement to change course at this point. If enough individuals, and tournament sponsors, and equipment manufacturers, and all those others from which the USGA draws its funding, would oppose this in the strongest way possible, then it could be overturned. All the feedback, logic, and opinions in the universe will have no affect at all. (Well, a lawsuit might.)

Best wishes to all on this forum, even those who ridiculed my position. Sticks and stones may break my bones, etc., but the only thing I'm concerned with now is finding shirts that fit loose enough and working out hard enough to keep a flat belly.

What movement?  It was a simple rule change, higher profile than most, surely, but still just a rule change.