2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[joekelly]

Could Tiger's drop spot on 15 have been legitimate if he had chosen the option 'drop on a line' from entry point back to ' as far as you like' and the divot from the first shot was precisely on that line but closer to the hole?

[dednaH tfeL]

I am very pleased that Adam Scott won. I am equally pleased that "Cheatah" Woods didn't.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Could Tiger's drop spot on 15 have been legitimate if he had chosen the option 'drop on a line' from entry point back to ' as far as you like' and the divot from the first shot was precisely on that line but closer to the hole?

Yes if Tiger had dropped on a line keeping the last point of entry into the hazard between himself and the flag stick, and the divot happened to also be on that line then dropping behind his divot would be fine.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Yes if Tiger had dropped on a line keeping the last point of entry into the hazard between himself and the flag stick, and the divot happened to also be on that line then dropping behind his divot would be fine.

But the balls last crossing the hazard was where it trickled into the pond.  The Line from the flag would be from that point, which was much farther left.  That is why he went back to the original spot.

[Chris E]

I can't tell, but just in case you're serious and not taking the piss, yes Woods dropped about two yards back from where he hit his original shot and thus was assessed a two shot penalty for not dropping as nearly as possible in the same spot.

Not sure what "taking a pis" means in this context. I know what he said in the interview. I personally think he should have been DQ'd for obvious reasons. The spirit of the rule used to not DQ him was not applied properly IMO. Now what is to keep players in the future from feigning ignorance when they sign a wrong card? Anyway just looking at the picture on the link I can understand how the officials saw that it was ok when they initially reviewed it. Also no way does it look like he was 2 yards back regardless of what he said. That does not excuse the fact this turned in to a mess.

[nevets88]

Long Putter wins the Masters to achieve career Grand Slam!

IIRC:

Keegan - PGA

Els - Open

Simpson - US Open

Scott - Masters

Congratulations to the broomstick!

Australian writeups on Scott:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/a-day-when-a-nice-guy-finished-first-20130415-2huqd.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/golf/adam-scott-wins-us-masters-after-play-off-victory-over-argentinas-angel-cabrera/story-fndedlnk-1226620390603

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/golf/greg-norman-lauds-protege-adam-scott-on-masters-triumph/story-fnaxw0m2-1226620871614

http://www.sportal.com.au/golf-news-display/australias-greatest-sporting-moments-230624

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/15/great-scott-aussie-finally-dons-green-at-augusta/

http://www.sydneysun.com/index.php/sid/213845591/scat/c4cdc9be967f45f9

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by loadwire

Sounds like Luke Donald would have a decent chance there if he's in form.

Eh maybe but Luke isnt exactly the most accurate of players off the tee. He's 78th in driving accuracy this year. His short game an putting will keep him in this but the biggest need at Merion is accuracy off the tee. Short players can get away at this US Open as long as they are accurate. However, as soon as a short player misses the fairway, that rough there is like quick sand. When you're in the rough, Merion goes from 6,900 yards which is very short, relatively speaking, to 7,900 due to that rough being nearly impossible to get out of. I think these players are in for a swift kick in the ass when they get to Merion.

[newtogolf]

Here are some of my Masters thoughts;

Nice to see all of Elin's friends and relatives joined TST this weekend just to bash Tiger.  Hard to believe the guy gets this much hate just for cheating on his wife, but whatever.

Congrats to Scott, though I fear this win just put the final nail in the anchored putter argument, he better start practicing with a short putter soon.

I became a fan of Angel Cabrera yesterday.  The gracious way he handled the end of the tournament and playoffs was a great example of what this sport is all about.  After all the controversy of the Guan penalty and Tiger it was refreshing to see the two top competitors compete head to head with respect and sportsmanship.  Way to represent to sport!

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Hope snatched away, "you need to be very accurate" yeah Lee can win, "you need to putt well" prehaps not.

Is it short enough that Tiger and Rory can hit irons/5 woods around it?

Rory is far too inaccurate these days. His ability alone will keep him there on the weekend, but his play this year is disgusting. TW is a hell of a scrambler and his putting seems to be close to where it once was. But he's still not entirely consistent off the tee. I really think this course narrows the possible winners by a lot. The bombers will not fair well here. This truly might be Furyk's last and albeit best chance to win another major.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

But the balls last crossing the hazard was where it trickled into the pond.  The Line from the flag would be from that point, which was much farther left.  That is why he went back to the original spot.

That's why I said "If". It was a hypothetical.

In reality as you say the line Tiger could have dropped on was way left, either in the trees or in the stands based on where his ball crossed the hazard after ricocheting off the flag.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Chris E

Not sure what "taking a pis" means in this context. I know what he said in the interview. I personally think he should have been DQ'd for obvious reasons. The spirit of the rule used to not DQ him was not applied properly IMO. Now what is to keep players in the future from feigning ignorance when they sign a wrong card?

Anyway just looking at the picture on the link I can understand how the officials saw that it was ok when they initially reviewed it. Also no way does it look like he was 2 yards back regardless of what he said.

That does not excuse the fact this turned in to a mess.

Taking the piss means stirring things up, pretending to be asking a serious question but actually having a joke. After however many pages of debate you seemed to be going back to the start.

Players can feign ignorance all they want for signing a wrong card. It won't help them and they will be DQed.

Tiger was lucky that someone called in and reported the incident before he signed his card. That meant that the committee took a look and ruled on it. From there you're correct and they made a mess of the initial ruling. And because they made a mess of the initial ruling, they felt that it would be unfair to Tiger to DQ him as if they'd investigated properly the first time he'd have been given the 2 stroke penalty before signing his card and wouldn't have signed a wrong card.

This is far from a get out of jail free card for future mistakes by players. It took a pretty unique set of circumstances to get to a position where the committee felt that it was right to waive the DQ. I doubt we will see a similar situation again for a long time.

[atb5079]

Nobody is gonna put up a score at Merion like Rory did at Congressional; it just doesnt happen in the US Open. Rory's performance was an supreme outlier. The US Open is all about playing strategic, smart, conservative golf. Merion leaves a ton of very difficult decisions. A great example is they have a 310 yard par 4. Not sure how much longer they will make it for the Open, but lets assume its like 320. I forget what hole it is, but its a very downhill hole. The long players will be greedy and go for the green off the tee. And it is possible, but the hole is surrounded by evil bunkers and there is water short. A 250-275 yard shot off the tee is the best option. Going for the green off the tee is obviously tantalizing, but you miss the green, you arent making birdie and be lucky with the par. Its so nice getting a different type of course. Too many of these courses nowadays are nasty long and simply reward the long hitters. Merion is the opposite.

[nevets88]

Sea, part beforest me.

Of course, Scott got GIF'ed:

http://i.minus.com/iIPH258ovmaP4.gif

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Nice to see all of Elin's friends and relatives joined TST this weekend just to bash Tiger.  Hard to believe the guy gets this much hate just for cheating on his wife, but whatever.

They showed up all over the place.

Yesterday I was finishing 18 as a single while a twosome were walking up the 10th fairway, adjacent to me.  This was what I overheard:

A: What do you think of that Tiger review?

B: What do you mean?  The penalty?  I dunno, what do you think?

A: I always thought he was a douchebag with no integrity, and this just confirms it!

B: Because of the illegal drop?

A: Well yeah, the guy was caught on camera saying he intentionally dropped 2 yards behind his ball and then he signs a phony card!

B: Yeah, I mean you sign a bad card, you get DQ'd.

A: Exactly!  He intentionally signed a phony card just so he could win the Masters.  I don't see how anybody can respect that guy...

Couldn't hear the rest.  But I'm not surprised.  They are as stupid as some of the folks in this thread.

[jetsknicks1]

Sea, part beforest me. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/73134/] [/URL] Of course, Scott got GIF'ed: [URL=http://i.minus.com/iIPH258ovmaP4.gif]http://i.minus.com/iIPH258ovmaP4.gif[/URL]

Thanks for that photo. There's been sooooo much talk about Tiger, that some folks seem to forget that this was a great Master's finish. Way to go Adam.

[Chris E]

Taking the piss means stirring things up, pretending to be asking a serious question but actually having a joke. After however many pages of debate you seemed to be going back to the start. Players can feign ignorance all they want for signing a wrong card. It won't help them and they will be DQed. Tiger was lucky that someone called in and reported the incident before he signed his card. That meant that the committee took a look and ruled on it. From there you're correct and they made a mess of the initial ruling. And because they made a mess of the initial ruling, they felt that it would be unfair to Tiger to DQ him as if they'd investigated properly the first time he'd have been given the 2 stroke penalty before signing his card and wouldn't have signed a wrong card. This is far from a get out of jail free card for future mistakes by players. It took a pretty unique set of circumstances to get to a position where the committee felt that it was right to waive the DQ. I doubt we will see a similar situation again for a long time.

Ok. I didn't see where you declared the subject was off now limits. Perhaps you can get the admins to send out a PM to everybody when you feel it is time to move on. The only point I made in my first post was the picture looked like he was in the same spot. I then followed that up by saying I can see how the officials let it go until the interview. Tiger did get a reprieve due to ignorance. Now I don't believe he was truly "ignorant" of the rule; I think he got caught up and confused the 2 options he had if he chose to drop outside the drop zone. Regardless whether anybody looked at it or not, unless Tiger asked for a ruling and was told it was ok before he signed the card, is irrelevant. And he did not ask for a ruling so that puts that to bed. What we have here is a player signing a wrong card due to taking an illegal drop. Nothing more complicated than that. By allowing that without a DQ opens future worm cans.

[Spyder]

Notable mentions of other Masters winners:

Dustin Johnson and "The Great One's" daughter...

Tiger T-Shirt Guy...

Tiger Dopplegangers...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Chris E

Ok. I didn't see where you declared the subject was off now limits. Perhaps you can get the admins to send out a PM to everybody when you feel it is time to move on.

The only point I made in my first post was the picture looked like he was in the same spot. I then followed that up by saying I can see how the officials let it go until the interview.

Tiger did get a reprieve due to ignorance. Now I don't believe he was truly "ignorant" of the rule; I think he got caught up and confused the 2 options he had if he chose to drop outside the drop zone.

Regardless whether anybody looked at it or not, unless Tiger asked for a ruling and was told it was ok before he signed the card, is irrelevant. And he did not ask for a ruling so that puts that to bed.

What we have here is a player signing a wrong card due to taking an illegal drop. Nothing more complicated than that. By allowing that without a DQ opens future worm cans.

You insist on ignoring the fact that the committee was aware of the incident before Tiger returned his card and declared it to be no foul. It is part of the committee's job to prevent a player from making such a mistake if it is within their power.  When I worked as an on course rules official for the CGA, one of the things we were instructed on was to observe play in whatever area we were stationed in, and if we saw an opportunity to prevent an infraction, we were to step in and prevent it.  Since the committee thought that they had all of the facts available before Tiger finished playing the 18th, they made a ruling based on that evidence.  It was their mistake not to discuss it with Tiger before allowing him to return his card.  He made a mistake by confusing the drop options, but the committee didn't know that for certain until his interview.  In fact none of them even saw the interview.  It was brought to their attention around 10 PM on Friday, and they didn't meet with Tiger until Saturday morning.

It's the simple fact that the committee had the information and opportunity to prevent Tiger from signing an incorrect card that saves him from disqualification.  They should have met with him as soon as he came off the course, but they didn't think that here was anything to meet about.  Those who think that this happened just because it was Tiger are fools.  The rules were applied as they are intended to be used.

Those who think that Tiger tried to cheat are also fools.  If you think that Tiger would try to get away with something that obvious with 15 cameras focused on him, then be stupid enough to mention it in his interview, you are letting your self-righteous hate cloud your judgement.