2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I keep hearing people say that because the rules committee did not think Tiger violated the rule before he signed his scorecard that that absolves Tiger of a DQ. That is incorrect unless Tiger asked for a ruling (and told a rules official what he had done) and was given an incorrect ruling before he signed his scorecard. I have not heard anyone say that Tiger was GIVEN an incorrect ruling before he signed his card. Therefore he should have been DQed. After the fact, he should have had the class to DQ himself.

I agree. Tigers ignorance of his illegal drop should not/does not resolve him of his responsibility of turning in and signing a correct scorecard or allow him to sidestep disqualification for doing so. This is pretty clear cut. He broke a very simple and obvious water hazard rule. He recorded an incorrect score. He signed an incorrect scorecard. By the rules, he should 100% be disqualified for doing so. The heads at Augusta pulled a BS loophole (non-applicable) obscure rule out of their arse in order to ALLOW Tiger to continue playing for the weekend.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by VOX

I keep hearing people say that because the rules committee did not think Tiger violated the rule before he signed his scorecard that that absolves Tiger of a DQ. That is incorrect unless Tiger asked for a ruling (and told a rules official what he had done) and was given an incorrect ruling before he signed his scorecard. I have not heard anyone say that Tiger was GIVEN an incorrect ruling before he signed his card. Therefore he should have been DQed. After the fact, he should have had the class to DQ himself.

This is the crux of the argument that many seem to be missing.  It was just explicitly stated that Tiger never brought this up for clarification.  Therefore he should be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by VOX

I keep hearing people say that because the rules committee did not think Tiger violated the rule before he signed his scorecard that that absolves Tiger of a DQ. That is incorrect unless Tiger asked for a ruling (and told a rules official what he had done) and was given an incorrect ruling before he signed his scorecard. I have not heard anyone say that Tiger was GIVEN an incorrect ruling before he signed his card. Therefore he should have been DQed. After the fact, he should have had the class to DQ himself.

Erik just posted this on the chat.  They went by Rule 33-7/4.5

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

That's it. They're saying he didn't gain a significant advantage, didn't willfully do it, and so the penalty fit the crime, and a DQ would be too severe.

[Rudyprimo]

Tiger knows the rules of golf.  Last night while being interviewed he admitted that he dropped two yards behind his original shot.  Players are supposed to call penalties on themselves even if no one else sees it.  It doesn't matter what the rules committee said after first reviewing the video, Tiger knew he broke the rule and signed an incorrect scorecard.

If Tiger had been in really deep rough and touched the ball while addressing it, even if no one else saw it, he's supposed to call the penalty, right?  He shouldn't let the competition committee review the video and if they say they couldn't see him touch it, and then Tiger goes by what the committee ruled, even though he knew he touched it, that's cheating.  Frank Nobilo and the others defending him because of the excuse that the competition committee supposedly told him he did nothing wrong before signing his card are completely wrong.  Tiger knew what he did and that's all that matters.  Even if Tiger had a brain cramp when taking the drop and didn't realize it, he knew it when the committee first started questioning it and reviewing the video.  If he would have taken the penalty right then and there before signing his scorecard there wouldn't be any controversy at all and a lot of people would have a ton of respect for him for doing what is right.

Tiger had a chance to do something morally right, no matter how hard it is to make that decision, and he blew it.

By the way, that's complete BS that the competition committee didn't see anything wrong when first reviewing the video.  It's clear as hell.

[clarkeycats]

Tiger knows the rules of golf.  Last night while being interviewed he admitted that he dropped two yards behind his original shot.  Players are supposed to call penalties on themselves even if no one else sees it.  It doesn't matter what the rules committee said after first reviewing the video, Tiger knew he broke the rule and signed an incorrect scorecard.

Tiger didn't think he'd done anything wrong, which is why he signed his card.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by clarkeycats

Tiger didn't think he'd done anything wrong, which is why he signed his card.

Which is why he should be DQ'd.

It happens all the time.  Three guys have been DQ'd this year for signing incorrect cards.  Do you think they knew that they had committed an infraction they left off their card?  Of course not, but they made a mistake and the penalty for violating that rule (mistake or intentional) is DQ.  This should be no different.

[VOX]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Erik just posted this on the chat.  They went by Rule 33-7/4.5

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

That's it. They're saying he didn't gain a significant advantage, didn't willfully do it, and so the penalty fit the crime, and a DQ would be too severe.

Yes. but they did so incorrectly. 33-7/4.5 doesn't provide for that remedy given these circumstances.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by VOX

Yes. but they did so incorrectly. 33-7/4.5 doesn't provide for that remedy given these circumstances.

Exactly.  The 33-7 provides for exceptions for violations that cannot be reasonably discovered prior to signing the card.  Examples: Brushing a few grains of sand in the bunker, touching a loose impediment in the backswing in the hazard, etc.  Not taking a drop 3 yards from your original lie.

I'd be curious to see a poll with people's opinion on this along with whether they've played competitive golf before (beyond a Tuesday night rec league or the Sunday four man scramble).  I would wager that those who have played competitive golf would be more likely to feel he should have been DQ'd while those who have only golfed for recreation would probably be more likely to feel just the two stroke penalty was the correct call.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by VOX

Yes. but they did so incorrectly. 33-7/4.5 doesn't provide for that remedy given these circumstances.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-34/#34-3/1

and 33-7

the committee can waive the DQ penalty if they don't feel that there is significant advantage or abuse.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Come on, that's rubbish. After he did "mention it" -- ie. admitted intent -- they had give him some penalty. And have since been scrabbling around to find any justification to keep him in the tournament.

Yep; if Tiger got DQ'd the t.v. ratings would take a hit and then Augusta would have egg on it's face.

Now what they've done is look like it's outright favoritism but that's okay if the guy's a minority.

Originally Posted by eich41

Yes, many times that's exactly where the drop ends up.  That's the rule.  You play it as close as possible.  And Tiger even admitted that he took the extra distance to get a better shot and gain an advantage.

Yep. Making the admission that he purposefully made an incorrect drop tells you all you need to know about the guy's character.

'Make a drop according to the rules?...........Ain't nobody got time for that!'

[HOT IRISH]

Tiger didn't think he'd done anything wrong, which is why he signed his card.

Yes but tiger subsequently realised he was wrong & said it in the interview - the penalty for this is DQ, not some nonsense about TV evidence. Countless golfers DQ themselves every weekend for realising they'd made an error, often after a chat about an incident in the bar afterwards, the right thing to do is DQ yourself, Tiger didn't cuz he has no class. This is heading into the cheating category now but of course he's experienced there!

[Dave2512]

He didn't admit being wrong in the interview. He described what he did, a completely different thing.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by VOX

I keep hearing people say that because the rules committee did not think Tiger violated the rule before he signed his scorecard that that absolves Tiger of a DQ. That is incorrect unless Tiger asked for a ruling (and told a rules official what he had done) and was given an incorrect ruling before he signed his scorecard. I have not heard anyone say that Tiger was GIVEN an incorrect ruling before he signed his card. Therefore he should have been DQed. After the fact, he should have had the class to DQ himself.

I still do not quite grasp why he would have needed to get a ruling for this drop as he thought he made a correct drop. So in his mind he was correct. Also Committee made the same decision before Tiger finished the round. To me that sounds like he was given a ruling of all is OK. So if a ruling has been made, even though it is wrong it should stand. What is unclear to me is that how he then can be assessed two stroke penalty...

[clarkeycats]

Yes but tiger subsequently realised he was wrong & said it in the interview - the penalty for this is DQ, not some nonsense about TV evidence. Countless golfers DQ themselves every weekend for realising they'd made an error, often after a chat about an incident in the bar afterwards, the right thing to do is DQ yourself, Tiger didn't cuz he has no class. This is heading into the cheating category now but of course he's experienced there!

Ok dude, you think he should walk, I don't. He's playing the course because the comitee let him, he got a 2 shot penalty and accepted it. I'm gonna watch some quality golf and get back to talking about that.

[eich41]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

He didn't admit being wrong in the interview. He described what he did, a completely different thing.

Agreed, he didn't realize he was breaking a rule when he did it.

HOWEVER, it's irrelevant in terms of whether he should be DQ'd or not.  Guys are DQ'd for incorrect scorecards all the time, but they didn't do it on purpose either.

[walk18]

I still do not quite grasp why he would have needed to get a ruling for this drop as he thought he made a correct drop. So in his mind he was correct. Also Committee made the same decision before Tiger finished the round. To me that sounds like he was given a ruling of all is OK. So if a ruling has been made, even though it is wrong it should stand. What is unclear to me is that how he then can be assessed two stroke penalty...

Exactly. Tired of this revisionist history going on and people calling in penalties lately. It is not helping the game.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by jamo

You can go backwards from where the ball last crossed the hazard line. His ball hit the flagstick and ricocheted about 30˚ left, so he could go backwards across the hazard from that point. He would have been in the grandstands way off to the side.

Yeah, this really clarified it for me.  Took a few seconds to think on it.

I think backing up from the point of the original shot is an pretty honest oversight.  But not for a pro.

Each group should have a rules guy/official scorer, IMHO.   Seems silly to do it any other way.

[VOX]

Originally Posted by mvmac

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-34/#34-3/1

and 33-7

the committee can waive the DQ penalty if they don't feel that there is significant advantage or abuse.

It might seem that way based solely on the rule but the decisions say otherwise. I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.