Objections to Derek Ernst thanking God after his win?

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

I often argue that, but it is more correct to say that the founders of this country operated under a Christian perspective but were aware of all the problems that Christian factions especially when mixed up in government brought. And some came to the New World for religious freedom while others came for the freedom to oppress anyone who did not agree with them. Not much has changed since.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

See below.  This was one of the first things that came up when I googled searched the topic.

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

George Washington

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."

--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

In 1963, 90% of Americans claimed to be Christians; 2% professed no religious identity. In 2012, the percentage of Christians was closer to 70%; 13% claimed no religious identity

I can imagine in 1780 the percentages were even higher - Christianity in the U.S ( and worldwide ) is declining. The U.S was not 'founded' on Christianity, it was founded on men who were Christian - because the percentages were simply higher back then.

And if Christians want to claim that the U.S was founded on Christian morals - go right ahead . I would not want my beliefs to have anything to do with what happened during the establishment of the United States.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

See below.  This was one of the first things that came up when I googled searched the topic.

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

George Washington

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."

--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."

--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson

3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."

--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock

1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin

Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Be careful of the internet.  Many of the quotes attributed to Thomas Jefferson cannot be found in his own personal library or archives.  Unless it was printed with any of the above as authors, I would be skeptical they actually said any of this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323717004578155302814623978.html

[phan52]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

See below.  This was one of the first things that came up when I googled searched the topic.

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

You can post all the quotes you want about how "Christian" the Founders were. As far as morals are concerned, there is always the issue of slavery but, of course, that was another time and place. What I do know is what they chose to put in the Constitution...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

They also chose to put this in there...

"Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech..."

So, if follows that Mr. Ernst is free to make his comments concerning his faith. Personally, I always look at it as a form of p rosthelytizing and that always annoys the crap out of me. Leave it at home, I really don't care to hear it.

JMO.

[Yukari]

This is a non sequitur.  Just because LESS than 50% held seminary or Bible school degrees (I am not sure even that is true) does not make the foundation of this country a Christian nation.

You are arguing two independent events as being related.

This is like arguing since Obama was elected president for the second term, this nation must favor African-Americans.

The history is clear that the crux of the foundation of the U.S. is freedom of religion.  This is clearly evident in the Constitution itself as phan52 has pointed out.

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

...

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Yukari

This is a non sequitur.  Just because LESS than 50% held seminary or Bible school degrees (I am not sure even that is true) does not make the foundation of this country a Christian nation.

You are arguing two independent events as being related.

This is like arguing since Obama was elected president for the second term, this nation must favor African-Americans.

The history is clear that the crux of the foundation of the U.S. is freedom of religion.  This is clearly evident in the Constitution itself as phan52 has pointed out.

The founding fathers were called that because they "founded" the nation, correct?

The founding fathers were Christian and had Christian values.

The country was founded upon Christian values.

I do not feel it is a stretch at all to say that.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

_{-- Diary and Autobiography of John Adams , Vol. III, p. 9.}

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity , in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

FWIW, I do feel that the country now has far less "Christian values" than it did.  I feel this is a bad thing, you feel it is a good thing.  Pretty much the end of the discussion.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

The founding fathers were called that because they "founded" the nation, correct?

The founding fathers were Christian and had Christian values.

The country was founded upon Christian values.

I do not feel it is a stretch at all to say that.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

FWIW, I do feel that the country now has far less "Christian values" than it did.  I feel this is a bad thing, you feel it is a good thing.  Pretty much the end of the discussion.

Can you explain christian values? And how these values are christian? And not just values?

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Can you explain christian values? And how these values are christian? And not just values?

I would call them values that agree with the Christian faith.  (ten commandments...etc)

You can call them just values.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Can you explain christian values? And how these values are christian? And not just values?

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I would call them values that agree with the Christian faith.  (ten commandments...etc)

You can call them just values.

Exactly.  Just because values agree with your faith doesn't mean you can claim them.  (I don't really claim any faith but agree with a lot of the commandments)

Also, the ten commandments aren't just Christian.  They are part of a lot of religions.

I agree with the others ... you can't use the transitive property to say that these men were Christian, they founded the nation, therefore the nation is founded on Christian values.  You can't make that jump.

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

Thomas Payne, who in his tract "Common Sense" provided the intellectual underpinning of the American Revolution, was an atheist.

Ben Franklin acknowledged being influenced by gospel ethics and the example of Jesus but was closer to being an agnostic or atheist than a Christian.

Thomas Jefferson believed the teachings of Jesus were altered and added to by others and he prepared an edited version of the New Testament ["The Jefferson Bible"] that eliminated a lot of the superstition and Paulinistic doctrine that form the backbone of evangelical Christianity and preserved the moral teachings. Jefferson may at times have been a Christian, as for example when he was dying.

Washington and some others were more nearly Deists than Christians. When he and others talk of "God Almighty" they refer to a Supreme Being, a First Cause, an intellectual idea not identical to Jewish or Christian dogma.

The ideas of The Enlightenment were current among educated Americans who were not of the clergy and among some who were. Much of The Enlightenment was hostile to established religion. While these men could publicly seem to be Christian based on words they used, intellectually they were often something else.

[Wisguy]

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

If you demand that "bible thumpers" keep their mouths shut about their beliefs, perhaps everyone should also keep their mouths shut about their sexuaility.

The fact that you compare someone declaring their homosexuality to Rosa Parks is an insult to the entire black race.

Homosexuality is already mainstream and widely accepted. There are people out there who still are anti-gay, just like there are people who are anti-black, anti-white, etc...

I guess he felt the same type of need to reveal something personal in light of the win, which is fine by me. To compare it to a staple of the civil rights movement is downright blasphemous.

"Bible thumper" is a perfect example of a "flame" in this case.

1)  It would indeed be nice if everyone kept personal decisions on personal issues - chief among them religion and sexuality - personal and private.  But Ernst wasn't doing that, was he?  What Ernst was doing was, at least in part, proseltyzing - the whole comfort in numbers thing, where religious people can feel better about their beliefs and ignore how irrational their belief system is by saying "Well, just look! There's another good Christian!  There are so many of us that believe the same thing that we must be right!"  Collins wasn't promoting homosexuality, he was promoting acceptance of homosexuality.  There is a big difference.

2)  Homosexuality in the year 2013 is mainstream and accepted to approximately the same relative degree as racial equality was in the U.S. in the 1950s and 60's.  No one thought twice about a person of color sitting whereever they wanted in a bus in New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, or Seattle back then.  But it was not allowed in much of the South and not allowed in Alabama - before Rosa Parks, there were no black people refusing to obey bus segregation rules (at least that were known about on a national basis).  It's no big thing to be homosexual in the entertainment industry or even in a few sports like figure skating and diving.  But in professional team sports, before Collins, there were no homosexual athletes admitting that they were gay - none whatsoever.  Hell, the MN Vikings just this week fired their punter Chris Kluwe, after the best season of his long and excellent career with the team, because he has, totally in his own free time, voiced support for gay rights.  So Collins is a pioneer of sorts.  I'm not saying he stands on the same pedestal as Rosa Parks, but he is somewhat comparable to her within his own profession.

3)  "Bible Thumper" is an expression I've heard used by religious people to describe themselves.  It is colloquial, but not particularly derogatory - it refers to someone who is so outspoken about his/her beliefs that he/she is vigorously smacking the bible in his/her hands for emphasis.  I don't understand how that is considered to be an inflammatory description or term.  However, if you prefer a different colloquial term that refers to avid and outspoken Christians who promote their religion, fine, I'll be glad to consider it.  But just saying "Christians" is far too vague a term and people here have objected to its use as a synonym for "Bible Thumper."  I think "Bible Thumper" clearly conveys the identity of the group to whom I am referring without engaging in name-calling.  I almost never stoop to name-calling, but if I do, you will know it because I will likely call you a self-absorbed ass-clown or something similar.

[ScouseJohnny]

I've always admired Bernard Langer. He seems like a great golfer and a thoroughly decent man.

From what I've read, I understand that he is also a devout Christian.

Unless I'm mistaken, however, I've never heard him publicly mention his God in relation to golf, his own golf game, or his victories as a professional golfer.

Some of these younger, professional golfers who espouse faith are too noisily religious in my opinion.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Can you explain christian values? And how these values are christian? And not just values?

I would call them values that agree with the Christian faith.  (ten commandments...etc)

You can call them just values.

The Ten Commandments were handed down to Moses, an Israelite and a Jew, long before any prophet had the temerity to foresee the coming of Christ.  So in that pretext, the US was founded on Jewish values, not Christian.  The fact that many of the founding fathers had degrees in divinity was in part due to the fact that many schools of higher learning at the time had ties to some religious sect, with religious studies part of the required curriculum.

[Yukari]

There you go again making something that isn't there.  No where in my rebuttal did I say the current society's values are better or worse than yesteryears.

You even state LESS than 50% " held seminary or Bible school degrees. "  You then make a quantum leap of conclusion that ergo, this country was founded on Christian values.  Your conclusion is not based on logic.

Just because some of the founding father's were Christians does not make Christian value the basis of this nation.  Even if all of them were Christians, you cannot make that conclusion.  Your conclusion is based on the assumption that the founding fathers founded this nation BECAUSE they were Christian.  This is not true.  They founded this nation because they were persecuted based on religion.  In order to be free to practice ANY religion, they made it clear that there is separation of church and state.

Some of the values you call "Christian values" can be found in Natural law (see Plato and Aristotle, etc.) as well as any other religions as other have said above.

What is missing in your argument is the nexus between the reason for establishment of this nation and the founding fathers.

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

The founding fathers were called that because they "founded" the nation, correct?

The founding fathers were Christian and had Christian values.

The country was founded upon Christian values.

I do not feel it is a stretch at all to say that.

John Adams

2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

FWIW, I do feel that the country now has far less "Christian values" than it did.  I feel this is a bad thing, you feel it is a good thing.  Pretty much the end of the discussion.

[mtsalmela80]

Originally Posted by phan52

Seriously? Whatever.

Well, you got me. I just cannot compete with such a powerful argument.

[mtsalmela80]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

1)  It would indeed be nice if everyone kept personal decisions on personal issues - chief among them religion and sexuality - personal and private.  But Ernst wasn't doing that, was he?  What Ernst was doing was, at least in part, proseltyzing - the whole comfort in numbers thing, where religious people can feel better about their beliefs and ignore how irrational their belief system is by saying "Well, just look! There's another good Christian!  There are so many of us that believe the same thing that we must be right!"  Collins wasn't promoting homosexuality, he was promoting acceptance of homosexuality.  There is a big difference.

2)  Homosexuality in the year 2013 is mainstream and accepted to approximately the same relative degree as racial equality was in the U.S. in the 1950s and 60's.  No one thought twice about a person of color sitting whereever they wanted in a bus in New York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, or Seattle back then.  But it was not allowed in much of the South and not allowed in Alabama - before Rosa Parks, there were no black people refusing to obey bus segregation rules (at least that were known about on a national basis).  It's no big thing to be homosexual in the entertainment industry or even in a few sports like figure skating and diving.  But in professional team sports, before Collins, there were no homosexual athletes admitting that they were gay - none whatsoever.  Hell, the MN Vikings just this week fired their punter Chris Kluwe, after the best season of his long and excellent career with the team, because he has, totally in his own free time, voiced support for gay rights.  So Collins is a pioneer of sorts.  I'm not saying he stands on the same pedestal as Rosa Parks, but he is somewhat comparable to her within his own profession.

3)  "Bible Thumper" is an expression I've heard used by religious people to describe themselves.  It is colloquial, but not particularly derogatory - it refers to someone who is so outspoken about his/her beliefs that he/she is vigorously smacking the bible in his/her hands for emphasis.  I don't understand how that is considered to be an inflammatory description or term.  However, if you prefer a different colloquial term that refers to avid and outspoken Christians who promote their religion, fine, I'll be glad to consider it.  But just saying "Christians" is far too vague a term and people here have objected to its use as a synonym for "Bible Thumper."  I think "Bible Thumper" clearly conveys the identity of the group to whom I am referring without engaging in name-calling.  I almost never stoop to name-calling, but if I do, you will know it because I will likely call you a self-absorbed ass-clown or something similar.

You use the term bible thumper to be inflamatory, admit it. If you are going to name call and then put up some silly argument like "that's what they call themselves", I guess one can say the same thing about the N word in describing African Americans.

Just admit you hate the right wing and are quite leftist yourself.

There is nothing special about admitting you are gay in this day and age. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, mainstream society accepts gays. There will always be a fringe element that will hate someone. But you lumping the entire right wing into a fringe element is immature and ridiculous.

[mtsalmela80]

Chris Kluwe was fired because he pulled stunt after stunt violating NFL policy.

I'm quite sure if someone took the opposing position as strong as Kluwe took his, they would be fired as well.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The Ten Commandments were handed down to Moses, an Israelite and a Jew, long before any prophet had the temerity to foresee the coming of Christ.  So in that pretext, the US was founded on Jewish values, not Christian.  The fact that many of the founding fathers had degrees in divinity was in part due to the fact that many schools of higher learning at the time had ties to some religious sect, with religious studies part of the required curriculum.

There should have been an 11th Commandment.

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.