"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Golf is a game, a difficult game. 15 minutes per hole (4.5 hrs for 18) is NOT excessive! Yes, it can be frustrating to be stuck behind someone who has no clue as to etiquette (let alone skill). Live with it! Or, maybe help to turn the hacker into a gentleman golfer.

It is excessive, but even if it wasn't, 5 hours is excessive, as is 5.5, and 6…

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. VERY FEW! You want to exclude the recreational golfer... go join an exclusive club and pay the dues necessary to support such. Then whine and cry about those who have the cash (but not the desire) to play the game according to your elitist standards.

You don't have to be a "serious golfer" to play at a moderate pace. 4 hours is not a "fast track" pace. And there's nothing "elitist" about playing in a reasonable period of time.

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

If you feel you are so superior take a look at the typical time a professional round takes.

Way the hell too long, and they complain about it too. As do the fans who try to watch it.

[colin007]

Gentlemen... Golf is a game, a difficult game. 15 minutes per hole (4.5 hrs for 18) is NOT excessive! Yes, it can be frustrating to be stuck behind someone who has no clue as to etiquette (let alone skill). Live with it! Or, maybe help to turn the hacker into a gentleman golfer. How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. VERY FEW! You want to exclude the recreational golfer... go join an exclusive club and pay the dues necessary to support such. Then whine and cry about those who have the cash (but not the desire) to play the game according to your elitist standards. At least there you will have the argument that you have paid an outlandish sum to play at your ridiculous expectations. If you feel you are so superior take a look at the typical time a professional round takes. I for one would rather play a round with a hack with a sense of the spirit of the game than some damn fool who thinks that speed is more important than the joy of the game!

On all the courses near me, 4.5hrs is excessive. That amount of time means you're probably waiting on every hole. You should do the rest of us a favor and introduce yourself as a slow player when you get hooked up with strangers.

[atb5079]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Gentlemen...

Golf is a game, a difficult game. 15 minutes per hole (4.5 hrs for 18) is NOT excessive! Yes, it can be frustrating to be stuck behind someone who has no clue as to etiquette (let alone skill). Live with it! Or, maybe help to turn the hacker into a gentleman golfer.

How many courses could survive on only the fast track, self proclaimed "serious" golfer. VERY FEW! You want to exclude the recreational golfer... go join an exclusive club and pay the dues necessary to support such. Then whine and cry about those who have the cash (but not the desire) to play the game according to your elitist standards. At least there you will have the argument that you have paid an outlandish sum to play at your ridiculous expectations.

If you feel you are so superior take a look at the typical time a professional round takes.

I for one would rather play a round with a hack with a sense of the spirit of the game than some damn fool who thinks that speed is more important than the joy of the game!

Again, practice on the range and play on the course. 4.5 hrs is excessive, even 4 hrs is a bit much unless its a weekend course packed with people. No offense but you aren't good enough to take that long. Your level of skill is not conducive to taking extra time fiddling around. Btw, I include myself in your category so i'm not trying to bash your skill level; it is what it is. People should not be putzing around on the course. Driving your cart to the ball you should be thinking about the next club and the next shot. You get there, you realize you need a different club. You get the club, scope your shot, take a practice swing if needed and rip it. Talk and enjoy the round while riding in the cart or walking to you ball; not while somebody could be taking their next shot. You are not going to get better on the course, that day. Work the kinks out on the range where its not holding anybody up. Get to the course and act out what you have been practicing. I just in no way shape for form understand the level of slow play some people exhibit; its unnecessary.

[CR McDivot]

Pony up, boys!

Shovel out your $10k per annum or more to get your 30 to 45 minutes less per round.

Or quite whining, be a gentleman, and enjoy the game.

[mvarley84]

Pace of play is 100% the player's responsibility. The only problem with that, is you can have 17 responsible foursomes, and 1 slow group, and the whole course will play slow. You can preach til the cows come home, but some people will never change.

Managing pace of play is 100% the responsibility of the golf course. There should be no excuses as to why a marshal is not out there telling people to hustle up or let a group play through. Even the cart bunny could also keep an eye out for back logs and ask people to play quicker. Each golfer's definition of "proper pace" is going to be different, and no one will ever be satisfied. It's not about setting a standard 4.5 hour 18 hole....it's about recognizing when you are holding up the group behind you, and allowing them to play through. Its about the golf course making sure that people who are causing back logs are letting people play through, and enforcing it. To define a proper pace of play is going to make some people feel rushed, and thus not enjoy their game, or make them play worse.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Pony up, boys!

Shovel out your $10k per annum or more to get your 30 to 45 minutes less per round.

Or quite whining, be a gentleman, and enjoy the game.

It doesn't work that way, buddy.

You can be a gentleman in less time. In fact, that's more gentlemanly than forcing others to wait because you're playing slowly and acting entitled.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Pace of play is 100% the player's responsibility. The only problem with that, is you can have 17 responsible foursomes, and 1 slow group, and the whole course will play slow. You can preach til the cows come home, but some people will never change.

Yep.  And McDivot's foursome is going to be the one holding everything up, because he's in denial that there is a problem.

Quote:

Managing pace of play is 100% the responsibility of the golf course. There should be no excuses as to why a marshal is not out there telling people to hustle up or let a group play through. Even the cart bunny could also keep an eye out for back logs and ask people to play quicker. Each golfer's definition of "proper pace" is going to be different, and no one will ever be satisfied. It's not about setting a standard 4.5 hour 18 hole....it's about recognizing when you are holding up the group behind you, and allowing them to play through. Its about the golf course making sure that people who are causing back logs are letting people play through, and enforcing it. To define a proper pace of play is going to make some people feel rushed, and thus not enjoy their game, or make them play worse.

No, it isn't.  The player must take ownership or no policy is going to work.  He must understand that it's his actions which determine the pace or flow of the course, and he must be given the skills to manage his play so as not to be the problem (not golf skills, but pace of play skills).  The course is responsible for setting the policy, educating the players, and then enforcing the policy.  The player is responsible for taking ownership of the course policy and for taking to heart the skills which will help him play at an acceptable pace.   If the player understands this, then enforcement by the course is unnecessary.

And being the slow group on a busy day, it's not an option to let other groups through.  That takes time in itself, and there is always another group on the heels of the one you just let through.  Are you going to sit there while group after group plays through?  Just learn how to quit fiddling around when you should be playing and you may not be the fastest group out there, but you won't be the slowest one either.  Be at your ball and ready to play when it's your turn, then clear the area promptly so that the group behind you can hit.  If everyone just made a point of doing what they can to meet that goal, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Hopefully McDivot will some day wake up to the fact that he isn't the only player on the golf course.

[CR McDivot]

Originally Posted by atb5079

...Your level of skill is not conducive to taking extra time fiddling around...

Skill level has nothing to do with "fiddling". My partner and I can play 18 @ 7100 yrds walking in 3:30 and have done so many a time when no one is in front. When others who are not as attuned hold us up we do not whine. If someone wants to play through, we cheerfully allow.

We prefer to enjoy a stress less, gentlemanly game regardless of the frailties or self importance of others.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Quote:

Originally Posted by atb5079

...Your level of skill is not conducive to taking extra time fiddling around...

Skill level has nothing to do with "fiddling". My partner and I can play 18 @ 7100 yrds walking in 3:30 and have done so many a time when no one is in front. When others who are not as attuned hold us up we do not whine. If someone wants to play through, we cheerfully allow.

We prefer to enjoy a stress less, gentlemanly game regardless of the frailties or self importance of others.

My game is perfectly stress free, yet we keep up with anyone in front of us.  Four of us can easily finish in four hours, no rushing, playing by all of the Rules of Golf.

[CR McDivot]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

My game is perfectly stress free, yet we keep up with anyone in front of us.  Four of us can easily finish in four hours, no rushing, playing by all of the Rules of Golf.

Your round is not stress free, nor gentlemanly if you allow yourself to go postal over 30 minutes longer to play!

[MS256]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Your round is not stress free, nor gentlemanly if you allow yourself to go postal over 30 minutes longer to play!

I can't find the comment about somebody going "postal". Must have missed it.

There's a big difference between preferring to not spend the day behind idiots that don't have a care in the world about the people playing behind them and going "postal" about it.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Your round is not stress free, nor gentlemanly if you allow yourself to go postal over 30 minutes longer to play!

You're now arguing against straw men.

And I don't understand why the burden is on the people being held up by unnecessarily slow play to be "gentlemen", however there is no burden on the people responsible for the unnecessarily slow play.  This is just the same type of discussion we had earlier (possibly in another thread) where the assumption is that if everybody pretends there's no problem, it somehow vanishes.

It's still there!  Apparently, the USGA thinks so as well as a few golf personalities and professionals.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is pure bull, and looks more like someone in denial trying to make excuses (not saying you are, but that's what it looks like when you shoot down every suggestion).  Now or later for cleaning or replacing a club is a valid decision.  If I'm the last to hit, I wait until I get to the next spot where I am probably waiting on a playing companion or the group in front of my, then I clean and replace the club and start getting ready for the next shot.   If I still have to wait for another in my group to play, I clean and replace immediately.  Either way it's absorbed into the normal idle time that is part of every round.  It takes no time at all as far as the length of the round is concerned.

A nice sentiment, but we can't all step into a time machine and go back to our childhoods.  I didn't really start to play golf until I was in my mid 20's, and didn't get enthusiastic about the game until my 30's.  My parents didn't play, nobody in my family except me played.  I've always been the type of person who wants to learn all he can about the things I'm passionate about, so I made a point of leaning more than just how to play.  However, you can't expect someone who has never even heard the term "ready golf" to understand anything about how to accomplish it.  Tell him to "Play ready golf" and you'll just get a dumb look.  There is a lot that goes into that simple phrase that most players never even think about, and one small part of the process is the club handling I just discussed above.

lol I think that I agree with you more than not. I'm just saying Breed's time could be better spent. I know there are lots of newer golfers that watch him. He could have explained ready golf, or how to like you said - absorb things like club cleaning during idle time. Instead he was telling me how to make my wife and kids happier. I agree that even the small things can add up and any time saved is better than none.

Also agree that it is difficult to get a new player to think pace of play is important. But it can be done and if you can get that into peoples heads, it is arguably the best way to speed up the game.

I get the feeling that most of us in here arguing about how to speed up pace of play already have a decent pace, there are others who simply don't realize that it is such an issue and therefore wouldn't be in this thread... or in a golf forum at all.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by CR McDivot

Pony up, boys!

Shovel out your $10k per annum or more to get your 30 to 45 minutes less per round.

Or quite whining, be a gentleman, and enjoy the game.

It's a problem for the game of golf. Most people don't have that time commitment. How can you get a new player to want to play when they have to wait for every shot, it's already a slow game as it is.

[Stretch]

No one actually read the pace of play manual, did they? Because why bother with facts when there's so many free opinions just lying around the place.

It's not hopeless. It's not an inevitable byproduct of our (insert political/cultural gripe here) society. Pace of play can be managed and, more than that, can be used as key competitive differentiator by courses that are willing to make the necessary effort.

RTFM!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8wtmrqnrgx8sao/Pace_of_Play.pdf

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Stretch

No one actually read the pace of play manual, did they? Because why bother with facts when there's so many free opinions just lying around the place.

It's not hopeless. It's not an inevitable byproduct of our (insert political/cultural gripe here) society. Pace of play can be managed and, more than that, can be used as key competitive differentiator by courses that are willing to make the necessary effort.

RTFM!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8wtmrqnrgx8sao/Pace_of_Play.pdf

I've stated multiple times that the USGA agrees the marshal using a big stick yelling at people to pick up the pace doesn't work but most don't seem to willing to acknowledge it.

Maybe the low handicap golfers don't want to see the courses made easier to play for high handicappers (less / shorter rough, wider fairways, easier hole placement) and prefer the marshal carrying a big stick yelling at people to pick up the pace instead.  Problem is that it hasn't seemed to work for the last 2-3 years that I've been playing golf

What's Einstein's definition of "insanity" again - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  Sounds familiar.

[David in FL]

I've stated multiple times that the USGA agrees the marshal using a big stick yelling at people to pick up the pace doesn't work but most don't seem to willing to acknowledge it.  Maybe the low handicap golfers don't want to see the courses made easier to play for high handicappers (less / shorter rough, wider fairways, easier hole placement) and prefer the marshal carrying a big stick yelling at people to pick up the pace instead.  Problem is that it hasn't seemed to work for the last 2-3 years that I've been playing golf What's Einstein's definition of "insanity" again - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  Sounds familiar.

There are a TON of easy, gently set up courses out there. Far more than those that are routinely set up with high rough, narrow fairways, and smoking fast greens. If the problem is players playing courses that are too tough for them, I still see that as the players responsibility to play the course that matches their skill level. It's not the course management's responsibility to dumb the course down to the least common denominator! But again.....there are plenty of 20 hcps that are fully capable of easily completing a round in 4 hours, just as there are 5 hcps that are slower than death.

[iacas]

I've stated multiple times that the USGA agrees the marshal using a big stick yelling at people to pick up the pace doesn't work but most don't seem to willing to acknowledge it.

First, I don't think it has anything to do with low or high handicappers. Many of the slower players I know are low handicappers and many of the faster players are high handicappers. I think a big part of it is that marshals are more about customer service and sucking up to the customer rather than actually doing their jobs and getting them to play at the proper pace. Make people skip a hole when they get behind instead of just saying pretty please play faster and you may actually get results. Where's that from? Oh, [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/b/thrash_talk/slow_play]just an old article I wrote[/URL].