How to handle a cheater????

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by hacker101

For me no I would not turn either in to be honest with you. But I made myself clear on all outings out side of our playing group that the rules will be followed up front. If you don't know ask, if I don't know we will find out. I would call out my son and father in law right off and never let it get that far. But that is the relationship I have with them. As I said I don't have a dad other then my father in law and he already knows how I am about cheating and lying but he does not have an ego. He just wants to keep up, and my son plays his game for better or worse, but that is what I expect from an eagle scout.

As far tournament play if you are in a tournament and are cheating then you should be called out after all it is a gentleman's sport. And I agree you should not play in them if you are going to cheat.

I am with you Lihu it is all fun for me so if I am the worst player out there oh well I don't have an ego, I am there for fun and times with the guys.

But in the end the poster will need to decide what he can live with.

Agreed, our last outing was fun. I hope Oak Quarry will be as well. The pictures look awesome.

[Shorty]

What is this planet where people mark their own cards? In competitive rounds? WTF? You putt out and say "5" and that's it. Your marker writes down both your scores and you do the same. At the end you add them up and check - and after 9 too. You discuss any errors and fix 'em up. Then you sign them, swap them and hand them in. Not hard to do guys. And in the case of the OP, when the old man says "4" you just laugh and remind him of the extra 3 shots and write down a 7.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Shorty

What is this planet where people mark their own cards? In competitive rounds? WTF?

You putt out and say "5" and that's it.

Your marker writes down both your scores and you do the same.

At the end you add them up and check - and after 9 too.

You discuss any errors and fix 'em up.

Then you sign them, swap them and hand them in.

Not hard to do guys.

And in the case of the OP, when the old man says "4" you just laugh and remind him of the extra 3 shots and write down a 7.

I have always liked your responses.

My son and I do that to each other, but there's no telling what reaction you might get from other people.

[Wisguy]

Originally Posted by rehmwa

Cargo shorts......but don't get people started on that...  (i'd also accept 1 or 2 "extra" balls in your pockets if in a mockery mood)

I'll keep it in mind - if anyone starts to 'pat down' the field sometime I'll know why now.

seems to be three camps here:

1 - keep a spare in case you lose your ball and your cart is over on the other side of the fairway - or even 20 feet away is still a delay

2 - keep a spare to slip into the cup when no one is looking

3 - actually #1, but now self conscious about it.....   ; )

I'm a 1 (pocket has ball, 5/6 tees, and my divot tool/ball marker - nothing else, absolutely, not even the receipt).  But I'm self conscious about pace of play and lost balls.  I'm also the guy with 2 dozen balls in the bag but only loses 2 or 3 at most during a round.  Sue me.

On topic:  how to deal with them?

1 - if they play for money......I don't play with them

2 - if they don't play for money.....encourage them, if it results in ready(er) golf

I guess my perspective on golf is different than some of you.  I rarely gamble and if I do, it's generally closest to the pin on a par-3 for the next beer.

I've got a few friends who I think occasionally forget a stroke or two, but nothing is riding on their scores, so it doesn't matter.  However, if we were to gamble, I am confident that not a single one of them would drop a ball without including the stroke and penalty and I am just as confident that my friends know I would do the same - we're honest enough and trust each other enough that there would be no issue about a spare ball in the pocket being used for cheating.

But it seems like some of you on-course gamblers don't trust your friends to this extent  or they don't trust you.  That's kind of sad.  Precautions or no, I wouldn't want to play for money with friends like that.  I guess announcing the marked balls when playing in a tournament with people you don't necessarily know makes sense and gives warning that you're being completely upfront.

A few balls in the pocket isn't an issue for me playing in shorts - I don't go for some tight bun-hugging Euro threads, so my shorts are loose enough and the pockets are large enough to carry 3 balls, 4 or so tees, a pencil, and a ball mark repair tool without me ever noticing it.  I guess I must have less sensitive thighs than some of you.  In cooler weather, I'll usually play in a pair of casual khakis, which are looser than jeans and have almost as much pocket room as shorts, although I might put spare balls in the pockets of a jacket, if I'm wearing one.

[rehmwa]

good note, WG.

and, if anyone were to actually ask me if I have balls in my pocket, I'd probably laugh so hard I'd spray my beer on them.

[ossojones]

I say leave the old man alone.  It doesn't sound like you have the kind of relationship with him that allows you to call him out jokingly.  He knows he cheats and I'm sure he sleeps fine at night.  Having his son berate him about it won't change that.  Sometimes respect is more important than rules.  Some of you will say he is disrespecting the game and his competitors, which is true, and others will call him on it or probably already have.  There was a time your father let you win, or even cheat to win.  Let him do that now and enjoy your time with him.

[Elmer]

So in discussions with my tournament chair at the 19th hole, I was told that "your father has to stop winning" followed by a wink.

I apologized and indicated I have been doing my best!

Since I have not seen him I had a conversation with one of his golfing buddies who is well aware of the situation. He indicated that my father has been playing very well, however I countered with "nobody plays 5 strokes better than their handicap every tournament, at an unfamiliar course".
This we agreed upon. The golfing buddy also indicated league members had mentioned something fishy to him a few tournaments ago, which have been about 2 years back.

I guess now I have say something. I have a feeling that ego and pride will cause him to bail on the league.
 

[Grinde6]

51 minutes ago, Elmer said:

So in discussions with my tournament chair at the 19th hole, I was told that "your father has to stop winning" followed by a wink.

I apologized and indicated I have been doing my best!

Since I have not seen him I had a conversation with one of his golfing buddies who is well aware of the situation. He indicated that my father has been playing very well, however I countered with "nobody plays 5 strokes better than their handicap every tournament, at an unfamiliar course".
This we agreed upon. The golfing buddy also indicated league members had mentioned something fishy to him a few tournaments ago, which have been about 2 years back.

I guess now I have say something. I have a feeling that ego and pride will cause him to bail on the league.
 

I was thinking I would get to the end of this thread and the new post would be someone asking how it went or whatever.  I didn't imagine I would see you reposting to say 3 years later that you need to say something to him.  Not saying it would be the easiest thing to do for me either, my father doesn't golf so I envy you there...but I don't envy you having to tell him to stop cheating.  You do need to tread lightly, so I would just maybe say you heard from someone that his scores in these tournaments are questionable and let him know that he and everyone else is being watched more closely.

[natureboy]

On 6/27/2013 at 11:00 AM, Elmer said:

In closing I will say it makes it real tough when he busts my chops for my lack of golf skills. I may not be very good, but I play the ball as It is and I know how to count!

Ugh. Isn't this your second thread involving your dad's cheating ways? EDIT: sorry saw that his is just old thread.

Obviously it's up to you, but personally, I would be questioning the value of this relationship. He cheats in order to lord it over your 'lack of golf skills'. I find people who look down on someone, because of a higher handicap a bit reprehensible, but from family it's worse. Seems to fit the template of a 'hyper-competitive jerk'. Maybe he's trying to 'get your goat' so you feel compelled to 'emulate his worldview' as a cheater? Does this behavior spill over into other aspects of your 'relationship'? Ask him to tell you stories about how his old man treated him. I'm betting they will make you cringe.

Edited August 4, 2016 by natureboy

[mcanadiens]

Not really the same situation for me, since it was a buddy and not my father.

In my case, the friend is a big hitter that loses a ton of balls with his massive slice and doesn't count penalties. At a point earlier this year, I told him that we play different games and he can do whatever he wants. He's banging on with his usual, but I'm not hearing any more nonsense about how many strokes he beat me by.

 

[Gator Hazard]

I guess my dynamic with my dad is different. First, I have never seen my father cheat at anything, he always preached integrity to us and to take our lumps; to tell the truth even if it hurts. He also raised us to stand up for ourselves and what is right. If my dad saw me cheat he would be disappointed and would call me out on it and he wouldn't expect any different from me.

We have disagreements sometimes. I remember my parents and my in laws were at our house and my dad and I got into a heated discussion about something. My FIL was there as well. When it was done and I went inside my FIL said to my dad (my son would never disagree with me like that, proudly). My father responded that he raised us differently and there was nothing wrong with our conversation. His son is a really nice guy but quite meek and introverted. My dad told me about what my FIL said later and we both laughed. 

If your dad is a cheater AND has the gall to tell you that you aren't as good, I would take that as free license to tell him to stop cheating, because you are tired of hearing about it from other members. If he can't take it, he shouldn't dish it. 

[ol 3 putts]

Well if it was my dad, I'd remind myself this is the that guy fed and housed me, until the day I left home for the Army in 1973. Then I'd take a deep breath and quietly black mail him into sharing the prize with me if I keep quiet....

 Just kidding I'd talk to him about it over a fine cigar and single malt.

[70sSanO]

Let me start off by hoping that you are able establish a good relationship with your Dad.  Not sure of the current status, but your last post seems to indicate you are not golfing with him very much anymore, so your largely on the course and at the bar may not even be that.  If that is the case, talking to him about his on course scoring may not even be something to discuss at this point.  Hopefully there is some non-golf/sport interest that can be a bridge between the two of you.

John

Edited August 16, 2016 by 70sSanO

[rusty35]

sorry, I'm not up on all of the nuances of handicap scorekeeping.  But are you sure, I mean absolutely sure that he cheated?  the first post said someone mentioned a par on the first hole, that guy could have been mistaken, no?  If you are not sure, let it slide.  If you are, I think the private conversation goes something like "hey pop, nice job with a 77 especially considering the disaster on ## hole, didn't think that would have been possible".  This way at least, he knows someone is watching.

And hey, check the scorecard every few holes.  Not so much that the tension ruins your game, just to assert the fact that someone is watching.  

not that this is an easy one.  good luck!

[pganapathy]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2013 at 8:30 PM, Elmer said:

Do you report him to the league?

Do you confront him quietly one on one?

Now once you answer that, what do you do if it is my father? So there is the kicker. My father who is 65 and plays atleast 4 times a week. He can hit the ball well, but he can not recover from bad golf. He began playing in retirement and learned to play alone when he worked on a golf course. He keeps a ball in his pocket and always gets a magic kick out of the woods.

In answer to the OP of this topic, let me ask a simple question.  Let us make the assumption that a person who is willing to fudge his scores in golf is willing to take the odd shortcut in life and break rules here and there.  The question is "Is this the kind of thing you want your father teaching your kids".  Be clear that as their grandfather he will have a large influence on their lives and morals and ethics unless he never comes to visit.

Now, the way to deal with this is to have a quiet talk with him in private one day when only you two are at home, so that even if it escalates into an argument of any kind, it does not spill over into other things and lead to the involvement of other people like your mother, wife or kids.  If your father understands and changes, then all is fine.  If not, stop playing with him because your name will eventually be tarnished with the same brush and you don't need that.  Worst case, in a tournament call him out if after all this there is still no change.  Not easy or fun but something that is necessary because at the end of the day this is a question of ethics

[Kalnoky]

IMO no sense in saying anything. People like that don't ever change, or see the error of their ways (and even less at that age). You can confront a reasonable person about a misunderstanding, but confronting a natural born a*****e usually doesn't work out. Just take your dad for what he is, and be proud of the integrity you play with. People really only ever lie to themselves on a golf course.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Kalnoky

[Tim S]

Age is a good topic. Wait until some of you have some of it. I'm 66 and I am more active than some guys in their 50s. I also play with guys in their 70s and 80s.  These are guys who were once good players, by the rules, had their Halcyon Days and now just want to have fun. They know their limitations and they've re-written the rules to suit their age and capabilities. 

For instance, they always roll the ball for a better lie. All they want is the joy of hitting the ball cleanly, not digging it out of a divot. They don't want work, they want play. If they all do it, that levels the field. No, it's not strictly golf...it's adaptive golf, which makes it more for those who can't handle the real deal.

Okay, so these are guys you'd never find in a real competition. But in a tourney, everyone knows that the rules will be adhered to, whether you know them or not. If you break the rules, you or another player needs to call it. It's tough love. It's the game. 

Anything in between, for small change or pride, the rules have to be set before you tee off on 1. If they break even these improvisational rules, they are out of the competition.

With these old guys, they will tell me--"We take a mulligan on one, we improve our lies for each shot, and we never give putts." Then they describe the betting, and I'm in.

I can live with all that--because I enjoy playing with them, their way. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Tim Schoch

[Buckeyebowman]

On 6/27/2013 at 1:17 PM, Beachcomber said:

I'd simply call him out and 'rib' him.  But it doesn't sound like you have the same relationship with your Father?  So maybe address the subject a little different?  I'd definitely broach the subject of cheating...

 

One other thing you could try, which I was taught by my golf coach... Is to simply ask every one in the foursome/threesome/twosome what their scores were after every hole... Which makes them verbally confirm their score.  Then record the scores on your own card...

 

The verbal confirmation piece is the key... If a person says a score different than you counted, then call them out on it at that moment, instead at the end of the round.  This usually clears the air and lets the 'cheaters' know you're counting their strokes and will not tolerate it.  Also I think there are some folks who think they can take par - when they really scored a bogey and it's not a big deal.  But there is something about actually having to say your score aloud, such that everyone can hear it in the group... It makes it harder for that cheater to say 'Par' when he knows he really got a Bogey.

First, let me say I'm glad I don't have the OP's problem. Second, let me say that Beachcomber's suggestions about verbal confirmation and immediate confrontation is spot on! Waiting until later accomplishes nothing. My buddies and I play fast an loose with quite a few golf rules, but not counting strokes! Without that, the game descends into anarchy!

And for the OP. If your Dad seeks to berate you, or belittle you, because you expect or insist that he play by the rules, that's on him, not you! It may be a result of the way he was raised. We humans do have a habit of letting the crap run downhill!