How to handle a cheater????

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by That is Good

By the way... 65 is not old!

I got a good chuckle when I read this...

[newtogolf]

There's been a lot of good responses.  First, be grateful your dad is around and he shares your passion for the sport.  Second, what he does in non-league / tournament situations doesn't matter, see my first point.  There was probably a time in your life when dad let you win, so now you get to return the favor.

In league rounds, explain to him that there's a crackdown on breaking the rules, people are watching and that you don't want to see him or you get kicked out of the club or banned from competing because of some stupid rule violation.  This way he doesn't have to deal with being called a cheat by his son.

Tell him he can keep his score, but that you will keep the official score so that you're both protected during tournaments.

[Elmer]

Thank you for the responses.

First off, for some reason I typed the original post at work and it had paragraphs, but when it was posted it did not. I tried to edit the post but was simply unable to do so.

Secondly, my father has never been one to "let me win". regardless of a game of Horse, Wiffle ball or anything. He is a competitor and refuses to loose and gets pissed when he does so.

Unfortunately he learned golf the wrong way. He learned it by himself, playing alone on a course, hitting balls until he got it right. To this day if he is chipping on a green and misses he will drop a ball and try again. He used to play the better of the balls until I barked at him for it, because he was counting the wrong ball.

Like I said what he does or anyone does when we are just playing a round is none of my concern. I keep my score and that is that. what gets me is when you take 4 mulligans and tell me you birdied a hole.

This is a tough situation for me and I fear that after I call him out he will back out of the league after this year, but so be it!

Thanks

[jtw89]

I'd simply call him out and 'rib' him.  But it doesn't sound like you have the same relationship with your Father?  So maybe address the subject a little different?  I'd definitely broach the subject of cheating... One other thing you could try, which I was taught by my golf coach... Is to simply ask every one in the foursome/threesome/twosome what their scores were after every hole... Which makes them verbally confirm their score.  Then record the scores on your own card... The verbal confirmation piece is the key... If a person says a score different than you counted, then call them out on it at that moment, instead at the end of the round.  This usually clears the air and lets the 'cheaters' know you're counting their strokes and will not tolerate it.  Also I think there are some folks who think they can take par - when they really scored a bogey and it's not a big deal.  But there is something about actually having to say your score aloud, such that everyone can hear it in the group... It makes it harder for that cheater to say 'Par' when he knows he really got a Bogey.

I like this... That's a great way to let people know that you're watching, but avoid having to start an awkward conversation. Really, I just wish people would say "I made par on that hole. I cheated/ heled my self out a bit/ took a mulligan since I'm just 'practicing'/ whatever, but I'm taking a par." That would be more than fine by me until there is a reason to compete. At that point, I like the idea of every one having to say their score aloud.

[Lihu]

He's 65, maybe he was a 10 before?

I have a at least one playing partner whom I started playing three years ago. We took lessons together and learned to play from the ground up. I have known him for at least 10 years now as our kids went to school together.

Well, he has "forgotten" many a stroke on the courses we play, for instance on a typical 9 hole course he sometimes ends up a few strokes below my score. I am not sure what are his motives, but it doesn't really matter to me. For all I know he could have really forgotten the number of strokes, or I could have not been paying enough attention. My son and I joke a bit about his counting ability sometimes, but it's not really relevant. The fact is that we play roughly the same as each other, and we enjoy playing together.

Even if this happened during a tournament, I would still be the last person to turn him in.

You have known this man for 30 years. I would think his friendship is worth something. He might be cheating to get ahead, and neither you nor I would like that. However, if he is a good friend otherwise, you might give him a benefit of doubt. I don't think any of us is absolutely perfect at keeping exactly to the rules. We try, but none of us is perfect and could use a gentle reminder now and then.

Next time he does it, act like you didn't keep good enough track and would like to verify both your strokes together. Count off both of your strokes together. This way he will most likely correct himself if need be.

In the end, we all have to pay the price for our own actions.

[Spyder]

Tough situation there buddy. All I can really do is second what newtogolf and Beachcomber stated. Just keep in mind that he is your dad and he does need to receive some sort of "special pass", at least in my opinion, so long as it is not messing with other people's games/prizes/money, etc. Just do what you believe is right.

[RickK]

In my League, you can't keep your own scorecard.  Someone else keeps your card and has to sign it as the scorer.  You attest for what is there.

Don't let the man keep his own scorecard.  It is not fair to the others in the league.  Better yet, let someone else in your group keep his card and make sure they keep track of his strokes.

[dave s]

Couple things about the retiree set.  I believe you stated your dad began playing golf after retirement.  Good for him.  Great game and something he can do 4x a week.

My wife and I play in FL or South US a couple of times a year.  We always pick up a retiree or two during our rounds.  Here's how they play, for the most part:

1. 2-putt limit every green.  I don't care how close or far the first putt is to the hole, the 2nd putt is a 'gimme' every time.  If they happen to putt and miss a shortie, it counts as made!

2. Foot wedge.  Behind a tree?  No problem.  Next shot always finds a clear path to the green.  Same thing with a ball that finds the toolies.  If they happen to find a ball, (usually not theirs) they pull it out and play it. No penalty.  Or, they drop another, again with no penalty.

3. Breakfast balls.  I've seen many a second shot hit on par-3s when the intended result isn't achieved with the first ball.  And yes, they all seem to carry a 'spare' ball in the pocket.  Breakfast balls are used and played for score.

4. Last guy we played with played this way and commented to my wife he hadn't had a round over 80 since he could remember.  Carded a 77 during our round with him.  Probably more like a 95 had he putted out, didn't move his ball all over the course, hit extra shots, etc.  Whatever.

My take on this:  I guess it's ok if this is how his crowd rolls, everyone does it and it's accepted by his group. Competitive golf is a different story.  If your league (like mine) has rules posted and your playing a course with local rules, they should be followed by EVERYONE, your dad included.

Advice: Have a discussion with your dad in private.  He didn't begin a golf career until retirement.  He may not fully understand the difference between his friendly rounds with the guys and competitive golf. Those who play by the rules really don't like being beaten (on paper only!) by those who don't.

dave

[Jeremie Boop]

I've played with people who go as far as to tell each person what they had each hole when they keep score. They don't even bother asking what you got. That's fine with me as it always matched my score anyway, I think this is a symptom of playing with people who fudge their scores so much they just got tired of it. Maybe you could go that route. Next time you play together just say, I had "x" and you had "y" that hole. If he disagrees just count out the strokes for him to show him you are right.

[saevel25]

Play golf with a guy who will skim off shots on holes. never let him keep score. At least he doesn't blow up if you confront him. If you say, "hey i counted you as having a 7 on that hole". He'll will go, "Oh, yea, i forgot about that ball i put in the water", something like that.

[chriskzoo]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I'd simply call him out and 'rib' him.  But it doesn't sound like you have the same relationship with your Father?  So maybe address the subject a little different?  I'd definitely broach the subject of cheating...

One other thing you could try, which I was taught by my golf coach... Is to simply ask every one in the foursome/threesome/twosome what their scores were after every hole... Which makes them verbally confirm their score.  Then record the scores on your own card...

The verbal confirmation piece is the key... If a person says a score different than you counted, then call them out on it at that moment, instead at the end of the round.  This usually clears the air and lets the 'cheaters' know you're counting their strokes and will not tolerate it.  Also I think there are some folks who think they can take par - when they really scored a bogey and it's not a big deal.  But there is something about actually having to say your score aloud, such that everyone can hear it in the group... It makes it harder for that cheater to say 'Par' when he knows he really got a Bogey.

This.  I play in a league with 24 great guys, but we always confirm scores and compare after the round before turning in the official scorecard.  There is no shame in keeping people honest on the course.

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I've played with people who go as far as to tell each person what they had each hole when they keep score. They don't even bother asking what you got. That's fine with me as it always matched my score anyway, I think this is a symptom of playing with people who fudge their scores so much they just got tired of it. Maybe you could go that route. Next time you play together just say, I had "x" and you had "y" that hole. If he disagrees just count out the strokes for him to show him you are right.

I agree with you here and am surprised it is not "standard."  Our groups have always done that.  We designate one person each cart to keep track for everyone, their cart and the other cart included.

Best non-confrontational way is for scorekeeper to confirm your perceived score to the other golfer.  If they have a problem, both parties replay the hole and confirm what the actual score is.  A usual talk goes like this:

John, nice bogey.

Jim, I thought I tallied a par.

No Jim, you took two out of the bunker.

Oh you're right, bogey it is.

Now some people aren't going to like this next part because of perceived "mental game" issues, but we always preface our club pulling with "hitting 2" or whatever.  "Chipping for 3."  "This is my par putt"  Etc.  That way any conflict or penalty strokes etc can be addressed quickly and be snuffed out.

It is very easy to keep good track of score and easy to make a fudger feel uncomfortable.

To the OP I'll say again that a good relationship with your old man is a blessing and you gotta tread carefully.

[RoyJeeBiv]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

... be grateful your dad is around and he shares your passion for the sport.

plain and simple, agreed -- there are far more things to be worried about than someone fudging their score.

Originally Posted by Elmer

He is a competitor and refuses to loose and gets pissed when he does so.

my dad is the same way, very competitive.  my whole family suspects he even shaves off points in (non-golf) family games, and everyone just chuckles about it because we don't take this stuff so damn seriously.  frankly, it makes the times when you win that much sweeter (and funnier).

in golf, he'll take a couple mulligans per round.  he openly admits he'll only take a half stroke if he duffs a shot, so long as it goes at least half way to where he was intending to shoot.  i just smile and keep it to myself.  what's the point in causing a fuss??  if he's having fun, it's no sweat off my back.  when i'm his age, i'll look back at these times and simply cherish i was able to share them with him, ya know??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I've played with people who go as far as to tell each person what they had each hole when they keep score. They don't even bother asking what you got. That's fine with me as it always matched my score anyway, I think this is a symptom of playing with people who fudge their scores so much they just got tired of it. Maybe you could go that route. Next time you play together just say, I had "x" and you had "y" that hole. If he disagrees just count out the strokes for him to show him you are right.

i'm surprised people don't always do that anyway...??  that's the way i've always played golf...

in any event, that's what i was going to suggest -- if it really gets under your skin that much, just call out the scores at the end of each hole.  even asking, "i got a bogey -- you too??", or, "i took a 4, what was that for you, a 5...??"

if a sketchy score is called out that you feel needs to be questioned, walk through each stroke you remember and correct the error.  dollars to donuts he'll simply say, "oh, yeah, you're right", or, "oh, i missed that stroke".  the issue will solve itself for the most part, even if you have to correct it every now and then.  (this will probably eventually be followed by his assertions that his game has gone in the tank, or justifying his "worse" scores in some fashion -- just go along with it and have fun.)

[Wisguy]

dave

You make this sound like it's tantamount to cheating. I start every round with three balls in my pocket and I'm always surprised about people who don't carry at least one extra. It's called Ready Golf - hit a dubious shot that is either lost or maybe lost? You can either reach into your pocket and pull out another ball for a provisional, or you can be one of those dorks who always seems to have to walk back to the cart with a surprised look on his face, as if a lost golf ball wasn't a possibility that occurred to him in this sport, and spend 30 seconds rummaging around for another ball, wasting over a minute to get another ball. If I lose a ball, the stroke and penalty go on my scorecard regardless of whether or not I have another ball in my pocket, so why waste time by not having another one handy?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

You make this sound like it's tantamount to cheating. I start every round with three balls in my pocket and I'm always surprised about people who don't carry at least one extra. It's called Ready Golf - hit a dubious shot that is either lost or maybe lost? You can either reach into your pocket and pull out another ball for a provisional, or you can be one of those dorks who always seems to have to walk back to the cart with a surprised look on his face, as if a lost golf ball wasn't a possibility that occurred to him in this sport, and spend 30 seconds rummaging around for another ball, wasting over a minute to get another ball. If I lose a ball, the stroke and penalty go on my scorecard regardless of whether or not I have another ball in my pocket, so why waste time by not having another one handy?

It's not the extra ball in the pocket as much as the hole in the pocket for dropping the extra, "Oh looky looky, here it is, I found it right by my feet!"

[Elmer]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

You make this sound like it's tantamount to cheating. I start every round with three balls in my pocket and I'm always surprised about people who don't carry at least one extra. It's called Ready Golf - hit a dubious shot that is either lost or maybe lost? You can either reach into your pocket and pull out another ball for a provisional, or you can be one of those dorks who always seems to have to walk back to the cart with a surprised look on his face, as if a lost golf ball wasn't a possibility that occurred to him in this sport, and spend 30 seconds rummaging around for another ball, wasting over a minute to get another ball. If I lose a ball, the stroke and penalty go on my scorecard regardless of whether or not I have another ball in my pocket, so why waste time by not having another one handy?

Because of my father's actions I do the opposite.
I walk my rounds and play 1 ball. Everyone knows I play yellow balls with my initials on them. If I think a ball is OB and I have to walk away from the group I tell my opponent I am pulling a ball. I then pull a white ball with my initials on it out of my bag and usually wave the ball infront of my opponent,

I am tooo freaking honest!

[Ernest Jones]

Because of my father's actions I do the opposite. I walk my rounds and play 1 ball. Everyone knows I play yellow balls with my initials on them. If I think a ball is OB and I have to walk away from the group I tell my opponent I am pulling a ball. I then pull a white ball with my initials on it out of my bag and usually wave the ball infront of my opponent, I am tooo freaking honest!

Er, that sounds a little awkward, must have some uncomfortable moments.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

You make this sound like it's tantamount to cheating.

(snip)

and spend 30 seconds rummaging around for another ball, wasting over a minute to get another ball. If I lose a ball, the stroke and penalty go on my scorecard regardless of whether or not I have another ball in my pocket, so why waste time by not having another one handy?

Having spare balls in your bag is handy enough. Just go and grab one. How long does it take? Certainly not 30 seconds. Maybe 10 at most?

Seriously - you are hitting provisionals or are OB so often that you have balls in your pockets?

It's not cheating, but it will certainly raise suspicions that you are cheating or intend to cheat, even if you are an honest golfer.