What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by saltman

Thats great that you feel that way. You are wrong. Please show me in the rule book where the penalty is based on knowledge vs. lack of knowledge.

This could be associated with "ignorance of the law is not an excuse" where just because you don't know the rule doesn't mean it's permissible to break it. I inadvertently break rules and when told I accept it and remember to adjust for the penalty if it happens again. I don't necessarily think everyone needs to play that way unless they are playing for handicap or in a competition that is meant to played by the rules.

[saltman]

That's true, my problem is virtually everyone on this forum is indavertantly guilty of it including you. I guarantee you have cheated on a golf course. Tiger has, Phil has, I have. I don't intentionally cheat. It happens more often to those who know less about the game. In general there is a correlation, (not perfect), but a correlation between knowledge of the rules and handicap. The general tone of this forum just bothers me. It feels as though this place attacks the moral character of beginners because they don't know that OB is stroke and distance. We tell them they aren't really playing golf. Honesly, what purpose does that serve? Help beginners understand better, don't just sit back and pass judgment.

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by saltman

Thats great that you feel that way. You are wrong. Please show me in the rule book where the penalty is based on knowledge vs. lack of knowledge.

I am going to reply even though I think you are just trolling.  Inadvertently breaking a rule is due to ignorance, which isn't acceptable really, but it isn't outright cheating ethically speaking.   Conciously choosing to break a rule is cheating.  You chose to break the rule.  You may be penalized the same but morally/ethically they are entirely different.

You have also went from saying you didn't want high handicappyers to play by the rules because it takes to long to making us out to be attackers of beginners.  You are coming across as self-righteous at this point and we are all evil.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by saltman

That's true, my problem is virtually everyone on this forum is indavertantly guilty of it including you. I guarantee you have cheated on a golf course. Tiger has, Phil has, I have. I don't intentionally cheat. It happens more often to those who know less about the game. In general there is a correlation, (not perfect), but a correlation between knowledge of the rules and handicap. The general tone of this forum just bothers me. It feels as though this place attacks the moral character of beginners because they don't know that OB is stroke and distance. We tell them they aren't really playing golf. Honesly, what purpose does that serve? Help beginners understand better, don't just sit back and pass judgment.

It's less about the ones who don't know it's wrong and those who know the rule but chose to not follow it.

[saltman]

That is precisely the point I have been trying to make. You learn a rule and apply it forward, but I hope you also recognize that your handicap prior to that was based on your original lack of knowledge? As you become a better player, instances of this become fewer and further between and in fact ESC kind of eliminates really big numbers. For example, if I jack 3 OB off the tee in a recreational round, I am done on that hole for the sake of pace of play. In a tourney, however, I have no choice but to keep playing.

[Wally Fairway]

I will admit that I haven't read this entire thread - but I love to play golf with friends, and very rarely anymore do I play in a tournament setting. While I play the ball down, some of my friend who struggle to break 120 take full advantage of rolling the ball in the fairway & the rough (not that it helps them), and they will drop a ball if we can't find theirs in the woods, rough or near the water, and sometimes they just pick up and we give them an 8 or a 9 for the hole....nobody wants to take a 10 after all. I enjoy playing being on the golf course with these people, we might make an occasional wager, usually it determines who is buying the first round of drinks or two; but not serious money.

I will admit that the biggest rule that I break is that if the course is crowded and I'm a foot or so away from the hole and someone says "pick it up", "that's good" or "get that outta there" then I break my routine of marking and replacing the ball and I pick it up. If it is much longer than that I will putt it out and count the extra stroke if I miss it...but I confess that I do not hole every putt on every hole as is required under stroke play. And to the original concept of this thread, there are more rounds these days than I'd like in which I'm going right from the office to the first tee and I will hit a second ball off the first tee - rarely will I play it, but I like to get in an extra practice swing even if I've striped the first ball down the fairway. I'm not sure what the penalty is for that, since I don't play it and I certainly can't call the 2nd ball a provisional when I can see my first ball.

Other items to which I will confess:

- if I'm not in a tournament and my ball ends up in a spot that should be grounds under repair (clearly damage from equipment or the such) I might take a "free" drop

- I will sometimes not play from the same set of tees for the entire round, especially if all there are par 3's that all take the same club - I might wander back or forward to hit a different shot

- I ride in a cart at times, although I do not have a qualifying medical condition, but it is easier to socialize and carry some beer that way

- I do not always follow honors on the next tee; I have no patience for people who can't get ready to hit the ball - so I play away

- I've been known to drop a ball and hit a second shot, especially if the first one was bad - I won't play the second ball, but I could use the practice (if the course isn't crowded)

- I also wager on the game, have been known to give or take advice related to a course I know better than someone or they know better than me, and I don't always play the same ball the entire round.

My take is that there is tournament golf and then there is me golfing with my buddies, they are played on the same venue but they are different games...I'd rather have fun with my friends and hopefully they have some fun with me, then worry about whether they shot a 117 or if it should have been a 129 (or for that matter if an 84 should have been a 86)

And if my handicap should be a 9 instead of a 7.8, well I'm willing to take my lumps

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by saltman

That's true, my problem is virtually everyone on this forum is indavertantly guilty of it including you. I guarantee you have cheated on a golf course. Tiger has, Phil has, I have. I don't intentionally cheat. It happens more often to those who know less about the game. In general there is a correlation, (not perfect), but a correlation between knowledge of the rules and handicap. The general tone of this forum just bothers me. It feels as though this place attacks the moral character of beginners because they don't know that OB is stroke and distance. We tell them they aren't really playing golf. Honesly, what purpose does that serve? Help beginners understand better, don't just sit back and pass judgment.

Sure, I've cheated before.  It's possible Tiger and Phil have as well.  But breaking the rules is not necessarily "cheating" all of the time.  If, before making a complete stroke in a bunker, my club makes contact with a loose impediment, doesn't that require a penalty?  I broke the rules.  It clearly wasn't intentional, so to call me a cheater would be disingenuous.  A double-hit is illegal as well, but as a matter of semantics, I would not call it cheating.  Tiger made an illegal drop during a mental lapse, and people who hate him called him a cheater, when realistically he wasn't consciously trying to cheat the game (otherwise he wouldn't have admitted to it post-round).

Willful and wanton negligence of the rules could be a passive way of cheating, sure.  If a person intentionally ignores the rules and tries to be uninformed, so that he can then play the way he wants to, sure, that's also a form of cheating because the person is making a conscious decision to do so.  Otherwise, I think we should make a distinction between those people who cheat and a person who has broken the rules.

I'd like to add, that it doesn't take a vast knowledge of golf rules to know that hitting multiple tee shots, improving your lie or not penalizing yourself for hitting it into the water isn't the proper way to play the game.  Even a beginning golfer should understand those basic concepts.

[saltman]

If your club makes contact with a loose impediment in the bunker it isn't cheating. It's a rules violation. Cheating wouldn't occur unless you didn't penalize yourself accordingly. No it does not take vast knowledge of the game to understand hitting it in the water is a penalty. It does take a little more understanding to know your drop options and thereby not take an illegal drop. Mulligans on the 4th hole is an obvious rule violation. A breakfast ball on the first, maybe not so much considering I could simply stop playing my round and start over. Now you and I know that would be considered handicap manipulation, but maybe the average 25 handicapper doesn't though I agree its a stretch. With respect to handicap manipulation, the more egregious violation comes from those lower handicap players that start playing poorly early on and turn their round into "practice".

[phan52]

Originally Posted by saltman

That's true, my problem is virtually everyone on this forum is indavertantly guilty of it including you. I guarantee you have cheated on a golf course. Tiger has, Phil has, I have. I don't intentionally cheat. It happens more often to those who know less about the game. In general there is a correlation, (not perfect), but a correlation between knowledge of the rules and handicap. The general tone of this forum just bothers me. It feels as though this place attacks the moral character of beginners because they don't know that OB is stroke and distance. We tell them they aren't really playing golf. Honesly, what purpose does that serve? Help beginners understand better, don't just sit back and pass judgment.

You are the one assigning the attitude of "passing judgement". Most people here fit into the category of helping people understand better. Why wouldn't somebody want to be better apprised of the rules of a game they are playing?

Seriously dude, got off your high horse. It ain't so high, BTW.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saltman

I'm happy to come play you for money FourPutt :). I live in a major city and many courses are locked in with no place to expand. I played a course last Friday that had OB left on about 11 holes. I can imagine the days when I had less confidence in my swing adding up to about 15 strokes. Fortunately for me, those days are behind me....at least for the time being.

Sorry, but I don't play for money with people I don't know.  And there would be no good way to handicap such a match, since I haven't touched a club in more than a year.  I have no way of even guessing what the state of my game will be when I play on the 23rd of August for the first time in 16 months.  I do know that the course will not have an excessive amount of Out of bounds.  I can tell you that I will be playing short tees so that I can start with a conservative approach (Probably playing the white tees at the Keystone Ranch course in Summit County Colorado that day).

Originally Posted by saltman

There is not other sport in the world with a more complicated set of rules than golf. Again, I don't mean to be condescending, but I am willing to bet you inadvertantly break a rule more frequently than you realize on a golf course. I played high level junior and amateur tournament golf growing up and I still occasionally run into a situation on a golf course in which I either do not recall the rule or never knew it. I've never even seen a rule book for a church league softball game. When can we stop with the over dramatic comparisons?? The last time I printed off the full copy of the USGA rule book it was something like 200 pages.

I probably do know the rules somewhat better than you.  Playing tournament golf is no guarantee of knowing the rules - you just have to watch the PGA Tour to see that.  But I worked as tournament rules official at the state level for the Colorado Golf Association.  I've attended 2 USGA Rules workshops and successfully passed the 100 point exam at the end of each.  I've more or less been a student of the rules since I joined the USGA Associates program in 1987 and received my first rule book.

Originally Posted by saltman

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

There's nothing "bush league" about calling cheating, cheating.  It's either factually correct or it's not.

That's true, my problem is virtually everyone on this forum is indavertantly guilty of it including you. I guarantee you have cheated on a golf course. Tiger has, Phil has, I have. I don't intentionally cheat. It happens more often to those who know less about the game. In general there is a correlation, (not perfect), but a correlation between knowledge of the rules and handicap. The general tone of this forum just bothers me. It feels as though this place attacks the moral character of beginners because they don't know that OB is stroke and distance. We tell them they aren't really playing golf. Honesly, what purpose does that serve? Help beginners understand better, don't just sit back and pass judgment.

I haven't inadvertently broken a rule in 20 years.

I have intentionally done so when playing a busy course and been unexpectedly unable to find a ball which didn't appear to be in trouble (I play a provisional ball if I'm in any doubt at all).  On such holes, I return a score of par plus handicap as the handicap manual requires, so there is no cheating.  Simply breaking a rule is not cheating.  You must be breaking a rule with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage for it to be cheating.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by saltman

There is not other sport in the world with a more complicated set of rules than golf.

Spoken like someone who has never read the rule on pass interference.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltman

There is not other sport in the world with a more complicated set of rules than golf.

Originally Posted by turtleback

Spoken like someone who has never read the rule on pass interference.

Or like someone who has never read the rules of golf.

I assumed they were complicated as well the first time I picked up a rule book. But then I read them. They are not complicated at all, just voluminous. I guarantee that 99% of people who play golf never read them all the way through.

[Hacker James]

some of my better drives came from heading out on the first tee, stone cold then wondering the rest of the round "what did I do right?".

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by Hacker James

some of my better drives came from heading out on the first tee, stone cold then wondering the rest of the round "what did I do right?".

That's true.  My last breakfast ball happened when I teed off on #1 and looked at it and said, "Noooo, that's TOO good.  I better take a mulligan and hit one more reasonable"

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by rehmwa

That's true.  My last breakfast ball happened when I teed off on #1 and looked at it and said, "Noooo, that's TOO good.  I better take a mulligan and hit one more reasonable"

I think I do better when I'm still tight because it helps restrict my backswing from going too far. I wonder if that's the same for you guys.

[saltman]

"Probably the whole book of the rules of golf should be changed. If you try to figure it out, it should be common sense, yet common sense never seems to prevail. A USGA rules official said that it was much more difficult to pass the test to be a rules official than it was to pass the bar exam. There's no reason for that. The game should be simple. People should be able to understand the rules and the rules should be common sense." Jack Nicklaus

[saevel25]

The rules are not that tough to understand.

Play the ball as it lies

Don't ground your club in a hazard

You usually have three drop options, usually 2 club lengths, the point of entry between you and the hole, and the original spot (stroke and distance).

OB is stroke and distance

Hazards are all three options

Lost ball is stroke and distance

Its not that tough to understand, there area  few weird cases with man made objects, loose impediments, but still its not tough to understand. I don't get why people complain about it. its a simple game.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by saevel25

The rules are not that tough to understand.

Play the ball as it lies

Don't ground your club in a hazard

You usually have three drop options, usually 2 club lengths, the point of entry between you and the hole, and the original spot (stroke and distance).

OB is stroke and distance

Hazards are all three options

Lost ball is stroke and distance

Its not that tough to understand, there area  few weird cases with man made objects, loose impediments, but still its not tough to understand. I don't get why people complain about it. its a simple game.

The ball lies?  WTF?  Balls can talk now?

SO CONFUSING!!!  I give up.