Scramble Scoring question

[Elmer]

Last weekend I was playing an annual best ball scramble with my usual 4 some.

We were on a small drivable dog leg left. After 3 out of 4 of us put a ball in the fairway, I went for the green.

To reach the green you have to hit over the trees and hope to clear a hill.

Best case scenario you end up on the fringe.
We get up there and can not find my ball. We look in the hole and there it is!

We score a 1, we end up at 8 under for 18 (best ball scramble, too much drinking and tough course I will take that score).

However when we get to the 19th and after we turn in our score card one of the guys in the group ahead of me indicates someone in his group grabbed my ball and put it in the hole.

So :

is my group penalized for turning in an incorrect score card?

is the other group penalized for moving my ball?
Is my group penalized for turning in an incorrect score card?

I understand this was a scramble and they are for fun, so if you want to assume it was a single round for argument sake I am fine with that.

We ended up in 3rd place and had we come in at 7 under we would have been 4 and not won a prize!

in my defense we did nothing wrong but play the ball as we found it!

[Rulesman]

Work your way through this

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-33/#33-7/4.5

[Big C]

If I were in your shoes, I would notify the tournament chairman (or whoever is in charge of confirming scores and handing out prizes) and let him/her make the call.

If I were the tournament chairman, I would award you your most likely score (probably a birdie, depending on how close your ball was to the green), and DQ the offending group.

Stuff like this is why I think it's insane to have any meaningful prizes riding on scramble events. In addition to rampant cheating, you have general drunkeness and buffonery such as this. Don't get me wrong, I love a good scramble, but I will never in my life get riled up about prizes, scores etc. because the playing field is never truly level.

[saevel25]

Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.

So basically your score of 1 should count. You played the ball as it lied, not knowing the ball was moved. Being told afterwards doesn't change the fact. This would be similar to if a person found your ball, lifted it, and realized it wasn't his and put it back down in a different place. You go to your ball, and hit it.

[muttbag]

I'd find the guy who picked up your ball, grab the driver out of his bag and wrap it around a tree.  Accidentally picking up someone's ball is one thing (in which case, you put it back if you realize soon enough), but deliberately picking up a player's ball and moving it to the cup to fool him is downright disrespectful and shows no regard for the sportsmanship of the game.  Especially in a competition, even if it is just a weekend scramble.  That guy shouldn't drink on the course if he can't maintain that filter of golf etiquette, and it goes without saying that at least ONE person on his team should have stopped him and put your ball back.  Some idiots should stick to their softball league and stay off the course.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by muttbag

Some idiots should stick to their softball league and stay off the course.

respect in sports apparently only applies in this goofy game of golf then?

as far as I know, there's a long and rich tradition of softball, including silly pants and hats - just like golf

edit:  OP simply let the organizer or rules team (whatever was there) know about it.  abide by their judgment.  regardless, it must have been a decent shot.

[muttbag]

No.  Even beer leagues have umps eyeballing the game and keeping the play honest.  Golf is an honor sport, as you don't have someone babysitting you on every hole (except for the occasional Marshall drive-by).  Obviously some people can't handle it.

[Golfingdad]

If I'm the person in charge, I'd go off the sheet on this one.  Assuming that we are going to take the guys at their word that they did, in fact, move the ball, then they would get DQ'd for certain.  But I wouldn't feel right letting your team keep their 1, in fairness to all of the other groups who didn't move your ball.  On the other hand, in fairness to your group, because you weren't given the chance, I'd mark you guys down for an eagle 2 and call it a day.

Your group couldn't really complain about that, because you couldn't have done any better on the course.  The offending group couldn't complain because their actions were horrible.  Anybody else who you tied, or beat by 1 or perhaps 2 strokes could have a legitimate gripe ... but I would direct them to take that gripe up with the group in front of you.  They are the ones who tied my hands, and deserve the wrath.

And I second Big C's assessment of avoiding scrambles with big prizes.  Play for charity, and play for fun, and leave it at that.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

If I'm the person in charge, I'd go off the sheet on this one.  Assuming that we are going to take the guys at their word that they did, in fact, move the ball, then they would get DQ'd for certain.  But I wouldn't feel right letting your team keep their 1, in fairness to all of the other groups who didn't move your ball.  On the other hand, in fairness to your group, because you weren't given the chance, I'd mark you guys down for an eagle 2 and call it a day.

Your group couldn't really complain about that, because you couldn't have done any better on the course.  The offending group couldn't complain because their actions were horrible.  Anybody else who you tied, or beat by 1 or perhaps 2 strokes could have a legitimate gripe ... but I would direct them to take that gripe up with the group in front of you.  They are the ones who tied my hands, and deserve the wrath.

And I second Big C's assessment of avoiding scrambles with big prizes.  Play for charity, and play for fun, and leave it at that.

I'm getting really really tired of you being the voice of reason around here.

[Golfingdad]

I'm getting really really tired of you being the voice of reason around here.  ;-)

Sorry about that. ;)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

If I'm the person in charge, I'd go off the sheet on this one.  Assuming that we are going to take the guys at their word that they did, in fact, move the ball, then they would get DQ'd for certain.  But I wouldn't feel right letting your team keep their 1, in fairness to all of the other groups who didn't move your ball.  On the other hand, in fairness to your group, because you weren't given the chance, I'd mark you guys down for an eagle 2 and call it a day.

Your group couldn't really complain about that, because you couldn't have done any better on the course.  The offending group couldn't complain because their actions were horrible.  Anybody else who you tied, or beat by 1 or perhaps 2 strokes could have a legitimate gripe ... but I would direct them to take that gripe up with the group in front of you.  They are the ones who tied my hands, and deserve the wrath.

And I second Big C's assessment of avoiding scrambles with big prizes.  Play for charity, and play for fun, and leave it at that.

I agree.  Even though a scramble isn't approved under the rules of golf, there still has to be some accountability.  It's bad enough having to deal the the blatant cheating that goes on with 4 man teams and no oversight, but when something like this occurs, the tournament committee has to take some action.  Disqualification for the offenders seems quite reasonable.

On a slightly tangential topic:

I often wonder how anyone puts together a team that would cheat their way to the prizes anyway.  I don't think I've ever known enough players who would have a sufficiently unscrupulous nature to actually collaborate on such an act.  To do so would require a willingness to admit to someone else that you are of low enough character to cheat.  It's such a despicable act that most of the players I know would only go to the funeral of a cheater for the opportunity to spit on his coffin.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I agree.  Even though a scramble isn't approved under the rules of golf, there still has to be some accountability.  It's bad enough having to deal the the blatant cheating that goes on with 4 man teams and no oversight, but when something like this occurs, the tournament committee has to take some action.  Disqualification for the offenders seems quite reasonable.

On a slightly tangential topic:

I often wonder how anyone puts together a team that would cheat their way to the prizes anyway.  I don't think I've ever known enough players who would have a sufficiently unscrupulous nature to actually collaborate on such an act.  To do so would require a willingness to admit to someone else that you are of low enough character to cheat.  It's such a despicable act that most of the players I know would only go to the funeral of a cheater for the opportunity to spit on his coffin.

You underestimate the power of rationalization.  And the power of peer pressure.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I agree.  Even though a scramble isn't approved under the rules of golf, there still has to be some accountability.  It's bad enough having to deal the the blatant cheating that goes on with 4 man teams and no oversight, but when something like this occurs, the tournament committee has to take some action.  Disqualification for the offenders seems quite reasonable.

On a slightly tangential topic:

I often wonder how anyone puts together a team that would cheat their way to the prizes anyway.  I don't think I've ever known enough players who would have a sufficiently unscrupulous nature to actually collaborate on such an act.  To do so would require a willingness to admit to someone else that you are of low enough character to cheat.  It's such a despicable act that most of the players I know would only go to the funeral of a cheater for the opportunity to spit on his coffin.

You underestimate the power of rationalization.  And the power of peer pressure.

I'm just thankful that I don't hang with a crowd which would include such as those as my peers.

[Golfingdad]

I'm just thankful that I don't hang with a crowd which would include such as those as my peers.

Same here. We take pride in our -6 scramble rounds the put us in 18th place. ;). Especially if we finish without a bogey. :)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm just thankful that I don't hang with a crowd which would include such as those as my peers.

Same here. We take pride in our -6 scramble rounds the put us in 18th place. ;). Especially if we finish without a bogey. :)

Yeah.  I think of how many times we get off to a bang up start and make the turn at 7 or 8 under, then can't do a thing on the back.  It would be so easy to "adjust" a couple of those back nine holes, but it just isn't worth it.