Everyone is a Feel Player

[David in FL]

Interesting question.  Basic bicycle riding becomes feel rather quickly. But if you race , as I did, and want to go as fast as possible, there is a lot of technique that is not intuitive.  To race at higher levels where technique becomes important, you must learn the skills from a mechanical standpoint first in a similar manner as Erik has pointed out in the 5 "S"s of Great Practice Thread.  Road racing can involve a lot of tight turning and riding in a bunched up pack at high speeds.  Mountain bike racing has a different set of skills to help you negotiate obstacles and terrain at top speeds.  My bike club actually had training sessions for new riders to help them learn the skills.  I learned first then later became a trainer.

It all becomes feel at some point.  In some respects, I think the golf swing is harder to get the feel down that in bike racing.  When I was in the groove racing, I never thought about the technique and only focused on one thing, "Where do I want to go".  You are attached to the bike at five points and literally become one with the bike (stupid monkey?).  I haven't got there yet with golf.  I have had success with the short game, but with the long game I have not reached that level yet where I only think of, "Where do I want the ball to go?"

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

[MS256]

Connect the dots learners are seldom good at action tasks with their first attempts but they are more willing to keep practicing until the dots are smoothed out into action.

Holistic action learners are much better at action tasks with their first attempts but are more likely to be resistant to practicing connecting the dots needed for mechanical improvement.

For either group to reach their potential they have to adopt traits from the other group.

When I was young and coaching kids in baseball it drove me crazy before I understood the difference and learned to have patience with the dots learners on new tasks (no matter how simple I thought they were) and learned to push the holistic action learners to work on mechanical improvement (even though they hated it and were going to resist it every step of the way).

Separate topic : Just curious. Do any of you guys hit the ball just as well if you close your eyes as soon as your downswing starts?

Once my downswing starts the horse is pretty much out of the barn and seeing the ball doesn't make much difference at that point. I know where the ball is and it's not like I am going to re-route my club based on what I am seeing. I'm not sure that's typical though.

[rehmwa]

Separate topic: Just curious. Do any of you guys hit the ball just as well if you close your eyes as soon as your downswing starts?

It's a great drill.  I didn't at first, but mainly due to the discomfort, not the (mechanics/feel - pick one).  Once I accepted the eyes closed, it worked pretty nicely actually.

[rehmwa]

I disagree discussion is pointless.  Purpose of this thread is to illustrate that even if you are "mechanical" you need employ some feel in order produce the mechanics.

my point was only this - the discussion isn't pointless, the way it's being discussed is - here's why:

• I'll seen one poster seem to define feel one way, and another poster define mechanical with the same concept/terms.
• Attempts to clarify have only resulted in pretty vague definitions of both.  anecdotal at best ("I think this guy is feel/mechanical and here's how he plays....")
• Mostly, I see someone arbitrarily consider themselves as one, and then just attach a complimentary definition to that term and a negative definition to the other.
• Seems that people think the definitions are so obvious, that they don't need to put it right down

IMO - "mechanics" (not 'mechanical player'), and "feel" (not a 'feel player') are not contradictory terms whatsoever, you can't have one without the other.  mechanics are how you accomplish a performance objective, feel is how those mechanics get drilled into muscle memory.  I think this is what you mean.  there is no mechanical vs feel type 'players', there are just people that are at different points in achieving required muscle memory.  And the idea that someone with natural talent or ability to come up with creative shots isn't a mech or feel thing either - seems a lot of people want to tie that to the whole "feel player" thing too.  Maybe it's true or not, but it's a total divergence from the thread intent (IMO)

You and Erik are pretty good at laying the baseline definitions (right or wrong - you guys establish something for people to use as a common ground of discussion - example was the whole 'pressure' thing - you created a concept, tied a word to it and then discussed from that baseline and didn't let people redefine that word in such a way to derail the discussion - it works).

What do you 'want to' define as a 'mechanical' player and a 'feel' player?  (with that, at least we can then have apples to apples discussion)

without that, we are just arguing over our personal and varying definitions

[boogielicious]

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

[Golfingdad]

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

OK, so you guys are cyclists, eh?  What do you think of this? ...

Its not mine, its a co-workers.  I don't ride ... I own a $100 bike from Target that sits in the corner of the garage with flat tires.  He is really good and takes it pretty seriously.  I can do curls with this bike all day long.  It's about 10 pounds, and he tells me it is worth over $10,000!!!  (He doesn't have to pay for it though)

Anyways, I know.  All done now.

[chris3putt]

Quote:

~~OK, so you guys are cyclists, eh? What do you think of this? ...

Er, It's a bike??

[Golfingdad]

Er, It's a bike??

Bingo!!  "Check out the big brain on Chris!" or I could go a couple of minutes later in the movie and find another apropos line:   "I don't remember asking you a G** damn thing!"

[chris3putt]

Quote:

~~ "I don't remember asking you a G** damn thing!" :beer:

Asking has never been a requirement for me to give my opinion, Drew!!

And, yeah, yeah , I know!

[mdl]

Connect the dots learners are seldom good at action tasks with their first attempts but they are more willing to keep practicing until the dots are smoothed out into action.

Holistic action learners are much better at action tasks with their first attempts but are more likely to be resistant to practicing connecting the dots needed for mechanical improvement.

I'd never heard these terms as a way of splitting up types of learners.  I really like them!  Definitely one more good frames to keep in mind when teaching athletics!

[David in FL]

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

No, the worst thing is some idiot grabbing a brake at 30 mph!

[Golfingdad]

No, the worst thing is some idiot grabbing a brake at 30 mph!

No, from what I know of cycling, the worst thing is when somebody from your favorite Italian team sticks his pump in your front spokes at 30mph around a bend when nobody else can see.

[iacas]

I wanted to bump this thread to make sure people were aware of this.

While science informs everything I do in golf - it has to because there are certain physical realities, certain biomechanics, certain physics and geometry and so on - it doesn't make me a "scientific" teacher, or a mechanical one, or anything like that.

When a player comes to me and he's keeping his left arm in too far in the downswing and I determine that it's the priority piece, that player will get anywhere from one to three, four, even five feels to help change those mechanics. Feels are how we operate. Yes, the student will understand why what he's doing now is the area of focus and where I'd like to see his left arm, but the feels are how we get there. I'll try the first one that has the best chance of success (often that's all that's needed), but have more feels at the ready if that first one doesn't "click" with that student.

Every great instructor has a heavy "mechanical" background. They have to, because they have to understand how the thing works. But every great instructor also simplifies that whole mechanical marvel into the very essence, the simple thing, that the student needs right then, and gets them to achieve it.

[JGus]

@iacas totally agree with what you stated about "Feels are how we operate", but curious on what your thought(s) is/are when a 'feel' works with everything else, but for some reason doesn't seem to be the same natural feeling when transitioning from the back swing into the downswing.

And I understand that there may be other issues in my stance, swing, etc., causing this, but I have been beyond frustrated over the years on why I lose the natural feeling of being able to shift my weight forward and make the correct turn in my downswing.

My main battle over the years is trying to find the right trigger, or feeling, to make the proper transition from the back swing into the downswing.  When I throw a ball, swing a bat, or even swing a golf club waist high the feeling of weight shift and hip turn is very natural, I never have to think about doing it, it just happens naturally.  But the second I start the back swing and get to the top, it has never been the same natural feeling.  I feel like I have to force it, or create a mechanical trigger (if that is stated properly).

Is this lack of feeling a mental thing or is there something physically wrong preventing it. Again, I understand not seeing my swing limits certain responses, but I honestly can't understand how or why the 'feeling' disappears. 

Gus

[DaveP043]

53 minutes ago, JGus said:

And I understand that there may be other issues in my stance, swing, etc., causing this, but I have been beyond frustrated over the years on why I lose the natural feeling of being able to shift my weight forward and make the correct turn in my downswing.

 When I ..... swing a golf club waist high the feeling of weight shift and hip turn is very natural, I never have to think about doing it, it just happens naturally.  But the second I start the back swing and get to the top, it has never been the same natural feeling.  I feel like I have to force it, or create a mechanical trigger (if that is stated properly).

This is just an uninformed guess, but I'd suggest that the difference is in the bolded parts, waist high as opposed to all the way to the top.  I'd guess that when you take a full swing, your backswing gets to a position where you're off-balance, or out of alignment, or in some other "wrong" position, so you're struggling to find a way to swing forward.  This apparently doesn't happen with short swings, you're maintaining your balance and posture better.  Of course, even if my guess is right, I can't tell you how to get in a better position.  That's where a good instructor will help you both to diagnose and correct the issue.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, JGus said:

@iacas totally agree with what you stated about "Feels are how we operate", but curious on what your thought(s) is/are when a 'feel' works with everything else, but for some reason doesn't seem to be the same natural feeling when transitioning from the back swing into the downswing.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

50 minutes ago, JGus said:

And I understand that there may be other issues in my stance, swing, etc., causing this, but I have been beyond frustrated over the years on why I lose the natural feeling of being able to shift my weight forward and make the correct turn in my downswing.

Still not sure exactly what you mean.

There are few "natural" feels in golf. It's a lot of learned feels, which then become habit or second nature or automatic.

50 minutes ago, JGus said:

My main battle over the years is trying to find the right trigger, or feeling, to make the proper transition from the back swing into the downswing.  When I throw a ball, swing a bat, or even swing a golf club waist high the feeling of weight shift and hip turn is very natural, I never have to think about doing it, it just happens naturally.  But the second I start the back swing and get to the top, it has never been the same natural feeling.  I feel like I have to force it, or create a mechanical trigger (if that is stated properly).

a) I bet that if you were a minor league baseball player, you'd be working on your weight shift and/or the location of your elbow or whatever… and the things you'd work on wouldn't feel "natural."

b) Yeah, you have to find the feel that works best for you. It also might change over time.

50 minutes ago, JGus said:

Is this lack of feeling a mental thing or is there something physically wrong preventing it. Again, I understand not seeing my swing limits certain responses, but I honestly can't understand how or why the 'feeling' disappears. 

That's almost impossible to say. Feelings are transient. Hitters and pitchers can lose their form. PGA Tour players lose their form now and then. Etc.

---

In the end, the best thing for you to do if you aren't going to work with an instructor, is to make the move properly, as slowly as necessary, and see what you feel when doing it. Then work at almost that slow a speed, doing the 5S of Effective Practice, to build up the speed at which you can properly do the mechanics by using the feel you arrived at for yourself.

If I've missed something, let me know.

[JGus]

@DaveP043  just to clarify, what I meant with swinging a golf club waist high was basically emulating a baseball swing with a golf club.  I didn't mean a half-swing, sorry for the confusion, but I do understand your points, thanks.  At one point part of my pre-shot routine actually included a couple baseball type swings to feel how my lower body moves, but I just can't do the same natural move at the top of my back swing. 

@iacas I may not be explaining it correctly, basically what I am trying to say is that the natural feeling of swinging a bat, or a golf club emulating a baseball swing, or even taking a stance without a club and just swinging my arms, the natural move of the weight going forward and the hips turning comes very natural, I don't have to think about doing it, it just happens.  But when I'm at the top of my back swing, I have not been able to make that same natural move, I have to think about starting the downswing instead of my body just doing it naturally.  Don't know if that cleared things up at all?

Agree about finding the feel that works for me, and it has definitely changed many times.

My last set of lessons were heavily focused on this issue, and did help, but I just get frustrated that the natural feeling and movement that comes so easy in the other things is so hard to achieve in the normal golf swing.  And yes, I know golf isn't easy...

I will go back and reread the 5Ss of Effective Practice and follow your thoughts on slower speeds in the beginning to help build up to faster speeds with proper mechanics. 

And sorry if my thoughts are still not clear, what I am trying to ask when I visualize the feeling/movement I guess is a little tougher to explain in words.

Gus

[Kalnoky]

I think most beginners (like me) use the word "feel" in golf to describe something that is comfortable, and I think instructors, when they first show you a "feel" it is uncomfortable. Most drills, for example, are super awkward. When my instructor says "swing to the top and stop" and then he proceeds to contort my body like a mannequin, and I think to myself, this can't possibly be right... he is just trying to show me what it feels like.

You know what feels good to me? Pulling the club way back inside my hands. I love to do that.  When I start practicing and I get frustrated, that's what I always want to do. 

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Kalnoky