Scrambles- Do you assume winners cheat?

[Fourputt]

Had a great day at Red Sky Ranch yesterday- perfect weather on a beautiful and well maintained golf course playing with 3 good players from Keystone.

The foursome in front of us had 3 hacks and a decent player (who I would NOT have traded for anyone in our group).  When we caught them on a tee box after about 7 holes, they said they were -2 and asked how we were doing.  After we told them we were -5, one of their guys didn't say much, but I interpreted what he said as an implication that we must be cheating.

He was a stranger, bad golfer and drunk, so I don't really care what he thought, BUT there were 4 of my supervisors from Vail Ski School playing, so I wouldn't want them thinking that we cheated.

Do you assume that teams that go low in a scramble cheat?

That's another one of those "it depends" questions.  Depends on who is accusing and who is being accused, how low the score is, and even if I have my suspicions, I'm not making any accusations without some evidence.  I've seen too many legitimate scores in the 57-60 range from computer matched mixed teams (A, B, C, and D players with the D player usually at a 20+ handicap).  These are men's club events where the teams aren't self chosen so they can't be a bunch of buddies who try to cheat the tournament.  So it would take an unusual set of events for me to worry about it.  I've been on a team myself which was 9 under through 9 holes (we tanked miserably on the back 9).

Too many guys just make the automatic assumption that any team lower than them must have cheated.  When I play in one my team plays fair, and whatever happens, happens.  If you worry about it, then it's best to just not play scrambles.

[Strandly]

Good analysis.  It is funny how clueless some people are- I have been paired with bad golfers, not broken 80 and have them ask why I am not playing on TV.  Conversely, I have played a few rounds just over par with bad players and have them ask if my handicap is in the 12-14 range?

I don't hit a lot of TV worthy shots, but I did have one on 18- we were 275 out and the first two on our team hit because they knew they couldn't reach.  I wasn't convinced I could reach either, but waited until the guys were walking off the green to hit.  I nailed a perfect 3 w that ended up 3 feet for eagle.  I clearly saw two of the guys, including the guy who didn't believe we were -5, turn around and watch the ball roll up to the hole.

They were still on the 1st tee when we got there and I asked him if he had seen my shot just to reinforce the fact that we were capable of some good golf.  He claimed not to have seen the shot.  A definite jerk IMO.

I think this would strike me as some knob trying to rub something in my face.

But this is coming from an internet description obviously, it may be different if I was there.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

Does anybody remember the Oldsmobile Scramble? I played in it back in the early '90's (?). We had qualifying at our club and, if you won at your club, it qualified you to play with your Pro on a five man team at a regional championship. The winner there would go to a national event.

I was on a team that won at my club twice, and played in the Philly regional event both times. I remember going -8 on the first 8 holes one year, and finishing -8 for the day. The winners were -13. We could have done that easy, but we all stopped making putts. And going to the national event would not have cost anything, as the local Oldsmobile dealers picked up the tab. At least, that is what they did in Philly.

Originally Posted by barbm12thtee

Heck Yes! I was a youngster when I played in that. There was a formula they used so you couldn't load up on low handicap players. A, B, C and D players. Remember if you had enough teams signed up they would take the gross as well as a net team?

The team I was on won twice. The prizes were like Oldsmobile golf bags, Oldsmobile leather gym bags and other nice stuff.

We went to PGA Nationals and Windemere in Naples for regionals. From there The winners, not us

Bill M

[BuckeyeNut]

Does anybody remember the Oldsmobile Scramble? I played in it back in the early '90's (?). We had qualifying at our club and, if you won at your club, it qualified you to play with your Pro on a five man team at a regional championship. The winner there would go to a national event.

I was on a team that won at my club twice, and played in the Philly regional event both times. I remember going -8 on the first 8 holes one year, and finishing -8 for the day. The winners were -13. We could have done that easy, but we all stopped making putts. And going to the national event would not have cost anything, as the local Oldsmobile dealers picked up the tab. At least, that is what they did in Philly.

Yep....I used to play in it too!

Good times...good 90's golf memories!!  I played in it 4years from roughly 96-99 when I belonged to a private club.  The club wasn't anything fancy, but we sure had a good time together!!   We had a local qualifier for club members and we treated it like a big deal.  It was a full field freakin' event...and it was just club members! I still remember wanting to win that V8 Aurora with an ace!! ...the PRIZE CAR was parked over by the 16th tee.  LOL  The winner then went to the next qualifying stage at another club.....and then probably 1-2 more levels before making it to Disney.

We always had a huge pig roast party afterwards by the pool and everybody brought their families......what good summer memories!! What made the Oldsmobile/and then Buick more legit was that it was handicapped.  Teams are handicap limited and a valic HC was required to enter.

I was involved in a 4 team playoff once!!  Honestly, I don't remember our score...It may have been a 4 way tie at -12.   It was hilarious....we all played together in 1 group in the playoff!!!  16 players....LOL   The first fairway looked like a driving range!!  My team made it to the 3rd hole until we all missed a sneaky downhill 4 footer....damn!!

[onkey]

If there is string (or equivalent) involved, then yes, I do always assume the winners cheat.  I think that once you create rules that provide a method to cheat, people start to feel free to cheat a little more.  And then it begins to snowball when people start to suspect other teams are cheating which makes them feel justified to cheat a little more.

I played in scramble today and was insulted by the results.  Instead of using string, you were allowed to use a 5-inch tongue depresser to expand the diameter of the hole.  You could use it on every hole, but to be realistic it only had value if your ball came to rest on the edge of the hole.  I thought this was a better version of string and scores would remain reasonable but I was wrong.  The winning team shot a 48 with the runner-up shooting 49. 24 under par?!?!?!

I refuse to play in another one of these things unless it does not involve any semblance of string.

[MasonAsher2014]

I kid you not. Played a scramble last Saturday and won with 16 under. Me, my dad, my friend and his dad. Probably a 4, 16, 4, and 6 handicap in order. We had no mulligans and no string just a straight up scramble. We were -9 on the front with a par and -7 on back with 2 pars.

Next day played in a 3 man scramble with a guy and lady. Probably a 20 and 30+ handicap no joke and we shot a -12. I hit probably 10 approaches to 10 or less feet and hit all the par 5s in two. No mulligans or anything.

Won both.

Everybody thought we cheated but I mean hell I can shoot -5 by myself.

[vangator]

I've played in many scrambles and in most I don't believe there was cheating. At least not blatant. I played on a loaded team once that shot -21 with no mulligans or strings. All birdies and 3 eagles, one on a par 4. Kind of an easy course. Another was -17. And yes, pros do play in scrambles. And there can be some serious money won. Several hundred to the winning team. With skins, CTPs, long drives. And prizes. And booze. We all like the hero shots. Over the years I've won 3 long drives. Has 3 CTPs in one scramble. Just remembered one "funny" occurrence. In a scramble last year, I absolutely crushed a drive on the long drive hole. Put my name on the card. We just started, so there were many groups to go. When we were done, we had to drive down that fairway to get back to the clubhouse. I noticed the long drive pin was where we left it. I went over to look, and saw a different name. Funny thing, it was in the exact same spot we left it. There were only four divot marks. The ones we left. Some maggot must have cheated, but what could I do. Still love scrambles though. Most are the A,B,C,D variety at work with lots of drinking.

[dave s]

Not all, but I suspect a lot of bending of rules, maybe taking 'gimmes' on greens and taking liberties with long drives that might need more than a couple feet of leeway to be playable.

Was in a shotgun scramble a couple of summers ago.  We end up the 2nd 4-some off a par-4 hole.  The #1 group on our hole was a group of guys who didn't get a ball in play more than 140 off the tee box.  They also took 3 shots to get a ball on that particular green.  They had a long putt and it appeared nobody made it for par.

The scramble was flighted.  You couldn't have a single player with less than "x" hdcp and your team hdcp couldn't be anymore than "y" strokes.  My team was #2 in the 2nd flight meaning based on our team hdcp we ended up giving away some strokes to the other teams in our flight.  No team could receive more than one stroke per hole in the flight.

Imagine my surprise when that team had a net birdie on their card on the first hole played?  They also won the flight and each got about $400 in golf gear.  We finished 3rd (and played fairly all day) and got a $25 gift card to the pro shop where the outing was played.  We saw that team play.  They were hacks.  Wasn't a 'player' in the group.  So yes, they flat-out CHEATED to win.

Guess winning is just more important to some than to others.

I paid my $100, played a nice course, had a good time with my friends.  The place took good care of us and fed us like kings all day.  Making sure by any means that we 'won' was not on our radar.  We played well finishing at -8.  The team that won, (the hacks in front of us) finished -11 two shots ahead of the 2nd place team who shot -9.

No way.  No way possible those guys went 11 under playing the way they played. We watched them roll and slice tee balls into bad spots all day long   Eleven under?  No way.

dave

[Fourputt]

Not all, but I suspect a lot of bending of rules, maybe taking 'gimmes' on greens and taking liberties with long drives that might need more than a couple feet of leeway to be playable.

dave

How can you say "not at all"?  If you are bending the rules in a competition, then you are cheating.

[Golfingdad]

How can you say "not at all"?  If you are bending the rules in a competition, then you are cheating.

Because a typical scramble is not a real competition.

[vangator]

Not all, but I suspect a lot of bending of rules, maybe taking 'gimmes' on greens and taking liberties with long drives that might need more than a couple feet of leeway to be playable. Was in a shotgun scramble a couple of summers ago.  We end up the 2nd 4-some off a par-4 hole.  The #1 group on our hole was a group of guys who didn't get a ball in play more than 140 off the tee box.  They also took 3 shots to get a ball on that particular green.  They had a long putt and it appeared nobody made it for par. The scramble was flighted.  You couldn't have a single player with less than "x" hdcp and your team hdcp couldn't be anymore than "y" strokes.  My team was #2 in the 2nd flight meaning based on our team hdcp we ended up giving away some strokes to the other teams in our flight.  No team could receive more than one stroke per hole in the flight. Imagine my surprise when that team had a net birdie on their card on the first hole played?  They also won the flight and each got about $400 in golf gear.  We finished 3rd (and played fairly all day) and got a $25 gift card to the pro shop where the outing was played.  We saw that team play.  They were hacks.  Wasn't a 'player' in the group.  So yes, they flat-out CHEATED to win. Guess winning is just more important to some than to others. I paid my $100, played a nice course, had a good time with my friends.  The place took good care of us and fed us like kings all day.  Making sure by any means that we 'won' was not on our radar.  We played well finishing at -8.  The team that won, (the hacks in front of us) finished -11 two shots ahead of the 2nd place team who shot -9. No way.  No way possible those guys went 11 under playing the way they played. We watched them roll and slice tee balls into bad spots all day long   Eleven under?  No way. dave

That sucks. I'd be prick enough to call them out on that. Don't know what could be done about it though.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

How can you say "not at all"?  If you are bending the rules in a competition, then you are cheating.

Because a typical scramble is not a real competition.

Horsehockey!  If you are competing with other players in a tournament format for prizes, whether monetary or merchandise, then it's a real competition.  It's attitudes like yours that propagate the myth and help those players to justify their actions, no matter how wrong that mindset is.  Someone reads your comment and figures it's okay since "everybody else" does it.   The trouble is, everybody else doesn't do it.

[Parker0065]

Horsehockey!  If you are competing with other players in a tournament format for prizes, whether monetary or merchandise, then it's a real competition.  It's attitudes like yours that propagate the myth and help those players to justify their actions, no matter how wrong that mindset is.  Someone reads your comment and figures it's okay since "everybody else" does it.   The trouble is, everybody else doesn't do it.

No, Golfingdad hit the nail on the head. It is NOT a recognized format of play by the USGA/RA so in that essence it is not real "competitive" golf to begin with!!!! Maybe in your mind it is but I think the USGA/RA recognizes the fact that in any competition where the player(in this case team) is the sole determination of score on a particular hole is neither a healthy or fair format! For that I give them a lot of credit!

[Abu3baid]

No, Golfingdad hit the nail on the head. It is NOT a recognized format of play by the USGA/RA so in that essence it is not real "competitive" golf to begin with!!!! Maybe in your mind it is but I think the USGA/RA recognizes the fact that in any competition where the player(in this case team) is the sole determination of score on a particular hole is neither a healthy or fair format! For that I give them a lot of credit!

The question shouldn't be is it recognized as a completion or not.. As long as a group of people agree that they will compete then it is a competition by definition, agreed to by the golf ruling body or not. How this competition is observed is left to the people and to the body running this competition!

[Aguirre]

I hope they don't.  I'm one of the organizers of a golf outing once every year for friend who has sick kids (one died in January, unfortunately).  It was today (Saturday, took a nap when I got home, now I'm up in the middle of the night).  I do the golf part.

My team shot -14, lost by a stroke.  I didn't know the winners (nobody seemed to), and I noticed that they seemed just one shot ahead all day.  That as we were making our run birdieing nine of the last ten they kept just one step ahead.  So I hope it's not them scoreboard watching (it's a GPS tournament scoring system, so you know where you're at).  But part of me is cynical.  I wanted to win, damnit.

[Aguirre]

The question shouldn't be is it recognized as a completion or not.. As long as a group of people agree that they will compete then it is a competition by definition, agreed to by the golf ruling body or not. How this competition is observed is left to the people and to the body running this competition!

Correct.

[iacas]

Horsehockey!  If you are competing with other players in a tournament format for prizes, whether monetary or merchandise, then it's a real competition.  It's attitudes like yours that propagate the myth and help those players to justify their actions, no matter how wrong that mindset is.  Someone reads your comment and figures it's okay since "everybody else" does it.   The trouble is, everybody else doesn't do it.

Sorry, Rick, but I agree with @Golfingdad .

This is a scramble. If you enter it for anything more than goofing around and possibly having some beers on the course with your friends… you've entered the wrong tournament. No scramble is ever a serious competition, and thus, no scramble is ever a legitimate competition.

Just like that Rolex you bought in NYC for $20 is not a real Rolex. You want a real Rolex, you go to a reputable jeweler or something, not a street vendor.

[MS256]

How can you say "not at all"?  If you are bending the rules in a competition, then you are cheating.

That's the way I see it.

Because a typical scramble is not a real competition.

Sure it is. If my brother and I decide to have a contest of who can hit something with a rock from a certain spot it's a competition. If he moves up closer he cheated.

The question shouldn't be is it recognized as a completion or not.. As long as a group of people agree that they will compete then it is a competition by definition, agreed to by the golf ruling body or not. How this competition is observed is left to the people and to the body running this competition!

^^^ Agree. The thought that either the USGA or the R&A; get to decide what a "competition" is made me laugh. They get to decide the rules of golf.

Sorry, Rick, but I agree with @Golfingdad.

This is a scramble. If you enter it for anything more than goofing around and possibly having some beers on the course with your friends… you've entered the wrong tournament. No scramble is ever a serious competition, and thus, no scramble is ever a legitimate competition.

Just like that Rolex you bought in NYC for $20 is not a real Rolex. You want a real Rolex, you go to a reputable jeweler or something, not a street vendor.

I'm with Rick on that one. Four person scrambles are a "competition" that I rarely play in because it's too easy for cheaters to cheat but they are still a competition.