Pace Problem

[Bucki1968]

As I stated in an earlier post I usually put the clubs away this time of year. That being said, I played yesterday with a couple of buddies at a course in the Tampa area. Our tee time was supposed to be 12:04 but I think we got out more like 12:25 and it took 4 hours and 40 minutes to play. Didn't see one ranger. One more problem I realized yesterday is that the better you play, the longer you wait. On two of the par fives I laid up on purpose when I could have reached the green with a hybrid. I actually laid up just so the group behind us could at least hit their drives. So all you snow birds and tourists....the golf course is all yours. See you in April!

[djfajt71]

1 hour ago, Bucki1968 said:

As I stated in an earlier post I usually put the clubs away this time of year. That being said, I played yesterday with a couple of buddies at a course in the Tampa area. Our tee time was supposed to be 12:04 but I think we got out more like 12:25 and it took 4 hours and 40 minutes to play. Didn't see one ranger. One more problem I realized yesterday is that the better you play, the longer you wait. On two of the par fives I laid up on purpose when I could have reached the green with a hybrid. I actually laid up just so the group behind us could at least hit their drives. So all you snow birds and tourists....the golf course is all yours. See you in April!

I'm 100% with you!  From November through April, the only regular rounds I play are my Wednesday night league nights.  When I first got back into golf, I went out on a Tuesday afternoon in March.  I never expected there to be such a crowd, nor the accompanying 5 hour round on a relatively easy course.  I will play the occasional weekend round, but I prepare myself for the inevitable wait. 

[Dave325]

17 minutes ago, djfajt71 said:

I'm 100% with you!  From November through April, the only regular rounds I play are my Wednesday night league nights.  When I first got back into golf, I went out on a Tuesday afternoon in March.  I never expected there to be such a crowd, nor the accompanying 5 hour round on a relatively easy course.  I will play the occasional weekend round, but I prepare myself for the inevitable wait. 

I guess that is where we get the benefits up here in the north up in Ohio on the off-season.... The traffic is quite a bit thinner up here on the courses. I guess everyone's coming your way.  Winter golf in Ohio ain't for wimps (hehe).

[djfajt71]

Just now, Dave325 said:

I guess that is where we get the benefits up here in the north up in Ohio on the off-season.... The traffic is quite a bit thinner up here on the courses. I guess everyone's coming your way. (Smile)

Oh, they're here and they are clogging up every road, golf course, and restaurant!  As important as they are to our economy, and as much as I value the Florida winter weather, I die a little inside when they I start seeing the northern plates.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, djfajt71 said:

Oh, they're here and they are clogging up every road, golf course, and restaurant!  As important as they are to our economy, and as much as I value the Florida winter weather, I die a little inside when they I start seeing the northern plates.

My parents were snowbirds, and they complained just as much as you do about the traffic congestion in Ft. Myers during the peak snowbird season (they didn't play golf, so that wasn't an issue for them).  They lived about 15 minutes from the beach (that's about how long the drive was in May, just before they headed back to Colorado), but the times I was there visiting them in February, it took us a solid 2 hour creep to get to where we could see the ocean, and then it could take another half hour to find a spot to park.  It was far worse than trying to drive in Denver during the peak of rush hour, but actually similar to trying to get out of the mountains on I-70 back to town on a typical Sunday afternoon/evening.  Or trying to get into the mountains on a Saturday morning in summer, following an endless caravan of motor homes driven by flatlanders who haven't a clue about mountain driving.  

My only question would be:  How many of you who complain are actually native Floridians, or did you move there from somewhere else too?

[djfajt71]

3 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

My only question would be:  How many of you who complain are actually native Floridians, or did you move there from somewhere else too?

 Guilty as charged!  I was born and raised just outside of Pittsburgh.  At 32, I moved to DC for 3 years before settling in Florida. 

[Cartboy]

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2015 at 4:48 PM, SavvySwede said:

Wasn't Myakka Pines was it?

You must be a Savvy Swede.

Funny though, it was Snowbird Season, with all them Damn Yankees, and pace was still less than 4 hours.  But I understand, because the 7:15 group was always turning at 8:45, and was upset because there were starting tee times still where they need to go.

Hey, it was one of those Snowbirds who put alligator picture on the Internet!!!

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Cartboy

[Cartboy]

I thought I had an "Ah hah!" moment . . . rather than trying to find a way to get slow groups to speed up on our challenging course, which we have not been able to do in seven years, why not emphasize slow groups letting faster groups play through?  After all, that is in line with the "New-since 2008" rules of golf, which gives "Priority on the Course" to faster groups, regardless of size.

If a single wants to get it over in 2 hours, let them.

It would make us a "user-friendly" course if we allowed everyone to play at whatever pace they were comfortable with, as long as they let faster groups play through.

&, it would simplify marshaling. "Let that group play through, OK?"

So, I ran that idea past our Pro and GM, who was previously our Pro, and they said, "Isn't that what we're doing?"  Guess I haven't been here the last 7 years.  Could be.

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Cartboy
cuz

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

You must be a Savvy Swede.

Funny though, it was Snowbird Season, with all them Damn Yankees, and pace was still less than 4 hours.  But I understand, because the 7:15 group was always turning at 8:45, and was upset because there were starting tee times still where they need to go.

Hey, it was one of those Snowbirds who put alligator picture on the Internet!!!

 

My home course takes 9 hole reservations for the back 9 for the first 1½ hours each day.  We have the same issue with an exceptionally fast 18 hole group starting on the front.  They get to the the turn and they have to wait until all of the back niners are off the 10th tee (but that is a maximum of 1½ hours of back nine tee times - we never push it beyond that).  

It's not a common situation though, since most of the 18 hole groups are fourballs - even the 5:30 AM sunrise players are usually a full foursome - and even the faster ones take longer than an hour and a half to play the front.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

I thought I had an "Ah hah!" moment . . . rather than trying to find a way to get slow groups to speed up on our challenging course, which we have not been able to do in seven years, why not emphasize slow groups letting faster groups play through?  After all, that is in line with the "New-since 2008" rules of golf, which gives "Priority on the Course" to faster groups, regardless of size.

If a single wants to get it over in 2 hours, let them.

It would make us a "user-friendly" course if we allowed everyone to play at whatever pace they were comfortable with, as long as they let faster groups play through.

&, it would simplify marshaling. "Let that group play through, OK?"

So, I ran that idea past our Pro and GM, who was previously our Pro, and they said, "Isn't that what we're doing?"  Guess I haven't been here the last 7 years.  Could be.

 

The downside to that is if the course is full, letting anyone constantly play through just keeps slowing things down even more for the rest.  A foursome will have to wait anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes for a twosome to play through.  That's enough time for the next group to catch up and be waiting.  Then that twosome plays through the next group ahead and causes them to slow down for a few minutes too, and that just exacerbates the logjam forming behind them.

There is no true solution on a busy course besides making the slow group play faster or skip ahead to catch up, and that has to be done early in the round or the cause is lost.  Sorry that you can't seem to get cooperation for this, but that is a simple fact.  Playing through is a band aid, not a cure, and it even fails as a band aid on a full course.

[The Boss]

On November 3, 2013 at 4:24 AM, Cartboy said:

Although we have tried a lot of things, I will leave this open-ended.

 

I am in charge of Player Services at a very popular, very challenging course in a tourist area.  We get a lot of senior golfers, but they are not always the pace probblem. It can be the flatbellies who just have to play the tips!!!

 

We have shortened our tees, stress Tee it Forward, thinned the OB to speed up ball-hunting, have pace clocks on the first and tenth tees, have notices in the signholders on each cart,etc.

 

I'm looking for ideas on how to handle the groups we know are on a 5-hour-plus pace.  You know the ones . . . who never do anything wrong, so it can't be them!!!

 

We stress customer service and diplomacy

Cartboy,

  Glad you asked. I believe there are many steps that a golf course can take to help speed up pace of play of their golf course. Most of my suggestion relate to golf course policy issues and may not be applicable to your course in each an every case. I have played golf for many years and I've have played just about every type of golf course there is from big city munis to very exclusive courses and everything in between. So what I am saying comes from a breat deal of first hand experiences on the links.

 

  Many courses, not all, due to economic pressures I presume will during the busy season, and on the busiest days of week, stack up the reservations as low as 6 minute intervals. I wonder sometimes whenever I wind up at one of these courses whether or not the Pro making these types of business decisions actually know anything about the game of golf or, just maybe, they are just a bunch of dirty rotten greedy bastards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what will happen. I imagine the head pro must be thinking - Wow...we are going to make a fortune today! When in fact they should be thinking about how many golfers will never return to their course again which will have a far greater long term effect at impacting their course's  bottom line. This happened to me last year when my wife and I scheduled a tee time a the Heritage golf club in Myrtle Beach. I arrived at the tee box at my scheduled tee time only to find that there were still 32 golfers waiting at the tee box in front of me still waiting to tee it up. Long story short, after 5 and 1/2 hours we finally made it to the 12th hole. I could not bear this any longer and left the course. The problem was that the course had stacked their 4-somes at 6 minute intervals. They did not have a starter at the first tee, nor did they have a marshall on the course. In fact, they even had maintenance crews on the course cutting grass oblivious to the golfers they were holding up waiting to hit their shots.  At the end of the round, I spoke to one of the people who worked in the pro-shop about this. Basically, their attitude was if you don't like it don't play here. 

 

Recommendation #1 - Schedule "10 MINUTE MINIMUM INTERVAL" reservations, or longer...no shorter though. This will offer much relief to the golfers and "will" in the long run help improve your financial bottom line.

 

Recommendation #2 - Instruct your maintenance crews that they will be fired if they are found to be deliberately holding up golfers. This is a pet peeve of mine. Cutting grass in the middle of the fairway or green while your golfers are waiting to hit is totally unacceptable. Schedule your "through the green" maintenace to other than these busy periods. I once played golf at Torrey Pines South course which I was told schedules over 100,000 rounds of golf a year. I showed up at 4:30 in the morning...to get in line to get an early tee time. As you would imagine the course was in total darkness at this time of day. Golfers do this frequently so they can improve there chance at getting out early. Well...to my amazement, I saw one maintenance crew after another go out in total darkness with these enourmous tractors and grass cutters in tow. The tractors were all out-fitted with hi-powered, hi-intensity lighting so they can cut the grass at night. I guess if you are hosting this many rounds of golf a year doing this makes a lot of sense. Something to think about if you are a big operation like this.

 

Recommendation #3 - Instruct your starters they insist that they pair up golfers so they send out only 4 somes, particularly during these very busy periods. NO TWOSOMES!

 

Recommendation #4 - seriously re-think your policies regarding walking the course. I once played behind a couple, who were walking the course on a busy Saturday morning during the spring time. The course was very crowded. This couple turns out were members at this daily-fee course that permits walking. This couple played as-if they had 36 handicaps. Almost every shot they hit was errant and every green was 3 or 4 putted. Once again no marshalls were present. This couple would not let my group pass through no matter what. They even had an attitude that they were members and that they were entitled to play as they see fit. I would like to suggest if your course permits golfers to walk, restrict them to non-peak times. You could have a policy that only certified single digit handicaps are permitted to walk during these busy times and enforce this policy. Oh yea...I wound up leaving the golf course after 8 holes some 3 hours after I teed it up on #1.

 

Recommendation #5 - Suggest your course policy be that if a group stops at the turn (after 9 holes) for any reason, that groups playing behind are permitted to move up to hole 10 in front of them...no questions asked. Doing otherwise will slow up play.

 

Recommendation #6 - Suggest you strictly enforce a "No ball hawking" policy.

 

These are just a few recommendation I know will work. Implementng them will help speed up play on your course and most definately will help your coures's reputation as well as your financial bottom line.

 

Best Wishes,

 

The Boss

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by The Boss

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, The Boss said:

Cartboy,

  Glad you asked. I believe there are many steps that a golf course can take to help speed up pace of play of their golf course. Most of my suggestion relate to golf course policy issues and may not be applicable to your course in each an every case. I have played golf for many years and I've have played just about every type of golf course there is from big city munis to very exclusive courses and everything in between. So what I am saying comes from a breat deal of first hand experiences on the links.

 

  Many courses, not all, due to economic pressures I presume will during the busy season, and on the busiest days of week, stack up the reservations as low as 6 minute intervals. I wonder sometimes whenever I wind up at one of these courses whether or not the Pro making these types of business decisions actually know anything about the game of golf or, just maybe, they are just a bunch of dirty rotten greedy bastards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what will happen. I imagine the head pro must be thinking - Wow...we are going to make a fortune today! When in fact they should be thinking about how many golfers will never return to their course again which will have a far greater long term effect at impacting their course's  bottom line. This happened to me last year when my wife and I scheduled a tee time a the Heritage golf club in Myrtle Beach. I arrived at the tee box at my scheduled tee time only to find that there were still 32 golfers waiting at the tee box in front of me still waiting to tee it up. Long story short, after 5 and 1/2 hours we finally made it to the 12th hole. I could not bear this any longer and left the course. The problem was that the course had stacked their 4-somes at 6 minute intervals. They did not have a starter at the first tee, nor did they have a marshall on the course. In fact, they even had maintenance crews on the course cutting grass oblivious to the golfers they were holding up waiting to hit their shots.  At the end of the round, I spoke to one of the people who worked in the pro-shop about this. Basically, their attitude was if you don't like it don't play here. 

 

Recommendation #1 - Schedule "10 MINUTE MINIMUM INTERVAL" reservations, or longer...no shorter though. This will offer much relief to the golfers and "will" in the long run help improve your financial bottom line.

 

Recommendation #2 - Instruct your maintenance crews that they will be fired if they are found to be deliberately holding up golfers. This is a pet peeve of mine. Cutting grass in the middle of the fairway or green while your golfers are waiting to hit is totally unacceptable. Schedule your "through the green" maintenace to other than these busy periods. I once played golf at Torrey Pines South course which I was told schedules over 100,000 rounds of golf a year. I showed up at 4:30 in the morning...to get in line to get an early tee time. As you would imagine the course was in total darkness at this time of day. Golfers do this frequently so they can improve there chance at getting out early. Well...to my amazement, I saw one maintenance crew after another go out in total darkness with these enourmous tractors and grass cutters in tow. The tractors were all out-fitted with hi-powered, hi-intensity lighting so they can cut the grass at night. I guess if you are hosting this many rounds of golf a year doing this makes a lot of sense. Something to think about if you are a big operation like this.

 

Recommendation #3 - Instruct your starters they insist that they pair up golfers so they send out only 4 somes, particularly during these very busy periods. NO TWOSOMES!

 

Recommendation #4 - seriously re-think your policies regarding walking the course. I once played behind a couple, who were walking the course on a busy Saturday morning during the spring time. The course was very crowded. This couple turns out were members at this daily-fee course that permits walking. This couple played as-if they had 36 handicaps. Almost every shot they hit was errant and every green was 3 or 4 putted. Once again no marshalls were present. This couple would not let my group pass through no matter what. They even had an attitude that they were members and that they were entitled to play as they see fit. I would like to suggest if your course permits golfers to walk, restrict them to non-peak times. You could have a policy that only certified single digit handicaps are permitted to walk during these busy times and enforce this policy. Oh yea...I wound up leaving the golf course after 8 holes some 3 hours after I teed it up on #1.

 

Recommendation #5 - Suggest your course policy be that if a group stops at the turn (after 9 holes) for any reason, that groups playing behind are permitted to move up to hole 10 in front of them...no questions asked. Doing otherwise will slow up play.

 

Recommendation #6 - Suggest you strictly enforce a "No ball hawking" policy.

 

These are just a few recommendation I know will work. Implementng them will help speed up play on your course and most definately will help your coures's reputation as well as your financial bottom line.

 

Best Wishes,

 

The Boss

 

Your heart is in the right place but many of your suggestions can't work in the real world.  I worked as a starter on one of the busiest courses in the Denver area for 5 years, and there is no way to ensure that all foursome policy.  If I have a twosome scheduled and nobody else to pair them up with, I'm not going just let that tee time go by unused and make them wait what could be long time for someone to join up with.  That's the fastest way I know to ensure that they never come back - they probably won't even wait for it the first time.  There's always another golf course just down the road.

10 minute intervals isn't necessary either as long as players know the expectation up front and what the consequences are for failure to keep pace.  I agree that 6 minute interval is nuts, but where I worked, 8 and 9 minutes staggered worked adequately so that on most days we kept a good balance between maximizing revenue and keeping about a 14 minute per hole pace.  This on very busy recreation district course, equivalent to a muni.

No restriction for walkers is possible, or even desirable on such a course.  Walkers are not slow, slow players are slow.  I don't care what category or demographic you want to name, I can show you both fast and slow golfers in every one.  Your example just supports my argument.  You had a couple of horribly slow players, and they would have been just as bad if they had been riding because they didn't care if you had to wait.  It was their attitude, not the fact that they were walking that was the problem.

The course needs to have a workable policy, they need to enforce the policy, and every player needs to be informed of both the policy and consequences before he tees up his first ball.  After that there are no excuses.  You keep up with the pace or you accept the consequences.  That's it, period.

[The Boss]

16 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Your heart is in the right place but many of your suggestions can't work in the real world.  I worked as a starter on one of the busiest courses in the Denver area for 5 years, and there is no way to ensure that all foursome policy.  If I have a twosome scheduled and nobody else to pair them up with, I'm not going just let that tee time go by unused and make them wait what could be long time for someone to join up with.  That's the fastest way I know to ensure that they never come back - they probably won't even wait for it the first time.  There's always another golf course just down the road.

10 minute intervals isn't necessary either as long as players know the expectation up front and what the consequences are for failure to keep pace.  I agree that 6 minute interval is nuts, but where I worked, 8 and 9 minutes staggered worked adequately so that on most days we kept a good balance between maximizing revenue and keeping about a 14 minute per hole pace.  This on very busy recreation district course, equivalent to a muni.

No restriction for walkers is possible, or even desirable on such a course.  Walkers are not slow, slow players are slow.  I don't care what category or demographic you want to name, I can show you both fast and slow golfers in every one.  Your example just supports my argument.  You had a couple of horribly slow players, and they would have been just as bad if they had been riding because they didn't care if you had to wait.  It was their attitude, not the fact that they were walking that was the problem.

The course needs to have a workable policy, they need to enforce the policy, and every player needs to be informed of both the policy and consequences before he tees up his first ball.  After that there are no excuses.  You keep up with the pace or you accept the consequences.  That's it, period.

Gotta disagree with you Rick. I am positive that high hamdicappers that walk will bring the golf course to a crawl on a very busy golf course. I would bet my mortage on saying that if you timed a scratch golf walking and then timed the same golfer in a cart. The cart time will always be faster. The same applies for a hacker. Some of this has to do with the distance between greens and the following tee box. It is true a hacker will take a good deal more time to play either in a cart or walking because the number of lost balls, bad shots, etc...they will take. But regardless, they still will "always" take less time driving a cart. You can bet the bank on this. Try it sometime.

  Regarding twosomes, if the course you worked for was really as busy as some of the courses I am playing then there would not be much of a problem finding singles and other twosomes to pair up. I am sure there will be some occasions where there will be no one to pair up but this is the exception rather than the rule.

 Finally, stacking golfers less than 10 minutes apart to me is nothing more than pure greed or ignorance on the part of the golf course. Golfers will not come back if this occurs with regularity. I have yet to find a golfer who enjoys playing 5 and 1/2 hour plus rounds of golf.

Best Wishes,

The Boss

 

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, The Boss said:

Gotta disagree with you Rick. I am positive that high hamdicappers that walk will bring the golf course to a crawl on a very busy golf course. I would bet my mortage on saying that if you timed a scratch golf walking and then timed the same golfer in a cart. The cart time will always be faster. The same applies for a hacker. Some of this has to do with the distance between greens and the following tee box. It is true a hacker will take a good deal more time to play either in a cart or walking because the number of lost balls, bad shots, etc...they will take. But regardless, they still will "always" take less time driving a cart. You can bet the bank on this. Try it sometime.

  Regarding twosomes, if the course you worked for was really as busy as some of the courses I am playing then there would not be much of a problem finding singles and other twosomes to pair up. I am sure there will be some occasions where there will be no one to pair up but this is the exception rather than the rule.

 Finally, stacking golfers less than 10 minutes apart to me is nothing more than pure greed or ignorance on the part of the golf course. Golfers will not come back if this occurs with regularity. I have yet to find a golfer who enjoys playing 5 and 1/2 hour plus rounds of golf.

Best Wishes,

The Boss

 

With all due respect, this is is just uninformed.  I recorded turn and finish times for every group on the course as part of my job.  That means for scratch golfers and raw beginners, seniors and players in their prime, men and women and mixed groups.  I've pretty much seen it all at one time or another.  There is no common bond for slow players aside from the fact that they just play slow.

In fact, the poorer the player, the more I'd rather have them walking because they take more time driving back and forth to each other's ball in a  cart than they do each walking straight to his own ball.  You give one example and make a judgement on that, while I have 5 years of observing hundreds of players while on the job, as well as my 40 years of on course playing experience.

When a course is trying to compete in a very cutthroat market, giving up the revenue from 3 or 4 foursomes per hour is unsustainable.  If a course can be packed at a staggered 8 - 9 minute interval (until 10:30 each day, then 9 minutes after that), there is no financial upside to changing that to 10 minutes.  That means the course has no problem filling the tee sheet every day of the week during the season from open at sunrise until noon on weekdays, and all day on Friday through Sunday.  I did the math in an earlier thread somewhere and it comes out to thousands per week of lost revenue.  It would be utter stupidity for the management to even consider such a change.

As far as twosomes, you once again don't know what you are talking about.  2 green fees is more income than no green fees.  and no matter how busy I might be, there is always the possibility of a cancellation or no show.  If I only have 2 players on my waiting list and I get an opening due to a no show, those 2 players get the slot.  I've had times when a walk-on single waited for 2 hours to get a chance to play, and if that opening happened to be a full tee time, he still got his crack at it, even if it meant having to play alone on a day when there would be no playing through.  I always told him what the situation was, and if he still chose to go out, then that was that.

[DrvFrShow]

Just watched the back 9 Pure Silk finish in 2 hrs. which indicates a 4 hr pace for the final round of the tournament. Great work by the LPGA for setting a good example for pace of play. 

 

[The Boss]

28 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

With all due respect, this is is just uninformed.  I recorded turn and finish times for every group on the course as part of my job.  That means for scratch golfers and raw beginners, seniors and players in their prime, men and women and mixed groups.  I've pretty much seen it all at one time or another.  There is no common bond for slow players aside from the fact that they just play slow.

In fact, the poorer the player, the more I'd rather have them walking because they take more time driving back and forth to each other's ball in a  cart than they do each walking straight to his own ball.  You give one example and make a judgement on that, while I have 5 years of observing hundreds of players while on the job, as well as my 40 years of on course playing experience.

When a course is trying to compete in a very cutthroat market, giving up the revenue from 3 or 4 foursomes per hour is unsustainable.  If a course can be packed at a staggered 8 - 9 minute interval (until 10:30 each day, then 9 minutes after that), there is no financial upside to changing that to 10 minutes.  That means the course has no problem filling the tee sheet every day of the week during the season from open at sunrise until noon on weekdays, and all day on Friday through Sunday.  I did the math in an earlier thread somewhere and it comes out to thousands per week of lost revenue.  It would be utter stupidity for the management to even consider such a change.

As far as twosomes, you once again don't know what you are talking about.  2 green fees is more income than no green fees.  and no matter how busy I might be, there is always the possibility of a cancellation or no show.  If I only have 2 players on my waiting list and I get an opening due to a no show, those 2 players get the slot.  I've had times when a walk-on single waited for 2 hours to get a chance to play, and if that opening happened to be a full tee time, he still got his crack at it, even if it meant having to play alone on a day when there would be no playing through.  I always told him what the situation was, and if he still chose to go out, then that was that.

---

Wow. You are just so wrong on jist about everything you have addressed. So keep my previous post manegable I cited one example. However, I have been playing amatuer gold for over 40 years and have played at the college level, state amatuer level and just about every type of tournament possible. I've played golf with seniors, juniors, and professional  golfers.  I have organized many golf tournaments at my home clubs as well as at work and for friends and family. I could have filled a book with all the examples of pace of play issues I have expereinced on numerous golf courses but once again in the name of brevity I cited one.

 You are dead wrong about pace of play period. Any golfer who playsgolf using acartwill always plays fasterthan he or she will play if they had chosen with the only exception of if the course is playing cart path only rules. I have on numerous occasions, as well as others I play golf with, have proven this to ourselves. It is the result of decisions, like the ones you have mentioned in your reply to me, why golf courses are struggling financially. There are many reasons for this, the economy, people don't have the time, it costs to much but one of the big reason happens to be how long it takes to play a round of golf. If the golf course you work at treated their customers with the dignity they deserve and not like a herd of cattle then maybe your course would keep people coming back more often due to the pleasurable golf experiences that the golf course and its policies have provided their customers. If you're going to just "pack 'em in their Rick...we can use the money" then your golfers are not going to come back then. If it is truly a cut-throat competitive business as you indicated then why do you treat your life-blood with such contempt by packing them in like sardines on your course? Do you not think that your golfing customer fully understand what you course is doing and why it took 6 hours to complete a round of golf? I'll let you in on a little clue...your customers are pretty damn smart and packing then in at less then 10 minutes intervals is conceding the very fact that golf courses could give a damn that golfers finish their rounds in 4 and 1/2 hours or less. Now you and your Pro might think that the golfers will not mind but here again your assumption about this is dead wrong. Plain fact is, packing in golfers in  less than 10 minute intervals, sending all your two-somes out by themselves and letting your high handicap golfers walk the golf course during prime time is a receipe for financial disaster. Your only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. Your golfers are smart consumers and will remember how your course treats them. 5 and 1/2 hour golf is totally unacceptable. If a golf course cannot not provide a golf experience that is pleasurable in a reasonable length of time to play then that golf course should not be in business and will probably fail.

The Boss

[Fourputt]

32 minutes ago, The Boss said:

---

Do you not think that your golfing customer fully understand what you course is doing and why it took 6 hours to complete a round of golf? I'll let you in on a little clue...your customers are pretty damn smart and packing then in at less then 10 minutes intervals is conceding the very fact that golf courses could give a damn that golfers finish their rounds in 4 and 1/2 hours or less. Now you and your Pro might think that the golfers will not mind but here again your assumption about this is dead wrong. Plain fact is, packing in golfers in  less than 10 minute intervals, sending all your two-somes out by themselves and letting your high handicap golfers walk the golf course during prime time is a receipe for financial disaster. Your only fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. Your golfers are smart consumers and will remember how your course treats them. 5 and 1/2 hour golf is totally unacceptable. If a golf course cannot not provide a golf experience that is pleasurable in a reasonable length of time to play then that golf course should not be in business and will probably fail.

The Boss

Where did you see that I wrote any such thing?  You are making assumptions and statements that have nothing to do what anything I've said.  I spoke of an average of 14 minutes per hole and you make that into 6 hour rounds?  Your math is a bit faulty.  I've played that course off and on since 1975, and never saw a round over 5 hours, and anything much over 4½ was unusual.  I've never in my life played a 5½  hour round.  This includes 22 years of tournament play.  

Also I never said we had a policy of sending twosomes out by themselves.  What I said was that the logistics don't always allow for pairing them up.  When possible I did, when it was unreasonable to pair them, then they played as two.  

Since this course doesn't require anyone to ride, and since as a district course, it caters to residents of all abilities, I can refute your forecast for "financial disaster".  On one of the worst seasons I can remember, when there was no golf at all for 3 months due to snow, the facility still made a net profit of more than $750,000.  On a typical year they return more than $1 million to the district treasury.

You are trying to validate absolutes when none such exist.  Just because your experience seems to show a cause and effect, I can prove that such a relationship is not universal, and that other processes are not only possible but proven successes.

I won't say that I dislike playing a course which spaces players out more, but I've never found such a course that I could afford to play on a regular basis.  I agree that players who understand cart use can play faster than most walkers, but most riders do not use the carts efficiently, and that inefficiency cancels out any potential advantage that the cart gives them.

[The Boss]

16 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Where did you see that I wrote any such thing?  You are making assumptions and statements that have nothing to do what anything I've said.  I spoke of an average of 14 minutes per hole and you make that into 6 hour rounds?  Your math is a bit faulty.  I've played that course off and on since 1975, and never saw a round over 5 hours, and anything much over 4½ was unusual.  I've never in my life played a 5½  hour round.  This includes 22 years of tournament play.  

Also I never said we had a policy of sending twosomes out by themselves.  What I said was that the logistics don't always allow for pairing them up.  When possible I did, when it was unreasonable to pair them, then they played as two.  

Since this course doesn't require anyone to ride, and since as a district course, it caters to residents of all abilities, I can refute your forecast for "financial disaster".  On one of the worst seasons I can remember, when there was no golf at all for 3 months due to snow, the facility still made a net profit of more than $750,000.  On a typical year they return more than $1 million to the district treasury.

You are trying to validate absolutes when none such exist.  Just because your experience seems to show a cause and effect, I can prove that such a relationship is not universal, and that other processes are not only possible but proven successes.

I won't say that I dislike playing a course which spaces players out more, but I've never found such a course that I could afford to play on a regular basis.  I agree that players who understand cart use can play faster than most walkers, but most riders do not use the carts efficiently, and that inefficiency cancels out any potential advantage that the cart gives them.

Apparently you are not reading with comprehension. I indicated in my post that courses frequently send out 4 somes at less than "10 minute intervals". This has nothing to do with playing 14 minutes per hole. There is no correlation whatsoever between the 2. Sending golfers out at timed intervals at less than 10 minutes will always lead to rounds of golf around 5 and 1/2 hours on average. The fourteen minutes per hole is what the golf course would like each group of golfers to complete each hole they play. However, if the golf course floods the golf course excessively with golfers (once again by sending them out less than 10 minute intervals) then golfers cannot achieve this objective resulting in the 5 and 1/2 hour round. You need to think in terms of what is possible and not in terms of what is hoped for. Your logic is flawed.

In regards to tournaments, I can say in all honesty I have played in 100s of tournaments and I have never participated in a golf tournament that took less than 5 hours and 15 minutes. Even for tournaments that are double-teed, unless you are in one of the two lead groups then you better bring a good book to read. Back here in the East I can only guess we have a lot more golfers on our courses back here. How many paid individual rounds of golf does your district course play annually?

The Boss

 

[Big C]

I gotta say that you're a bit off base here, @The Boss. Every course should do their best to strike the delicate balance between revenue generation and a fast pace of play, but 10 minute tee time intervals leans too far to the latter. There are several well-run, highly trafficked courses around here that space groups 8-9 minutes apart. With a good starter and marshals who can act when needed, pace of play doesn't suffer in the least. If the course is properly run otherwise, 10 minute intervals is just insanity from a business standpoint.