Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I think this is called, or used to be called, the "rub of the green".

Nope.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Rub-Of-The-Green

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

In a casual round I may move the ball,

I've never really understood this. Why? It's just golf right? Whether you're playing in a tournament or just a casual round, what's the big deal with playing it as it lies? If you shoot your best round you'll just have to remember you fudged it up and thus won't really have that good feeling. And if you hit a bad shot, well...there ya go. How many times do you find yourself in a divot to where if you land in one you're just like...yeah no...not gonna play that ball today, I've had it! Not trying to hammer you here, just don't see any real benefit from moving your ball. 

[rehmwa]

12 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I've never really understood this.

of course you do.  you just don't agree.  it's his game, so it doesn't really matter what the other 5 billion people on the planet think.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, rehmwa said:

of course you do.  you just don't agree.  it's his game, so it doesn't really matter what the other 5 billion people on the planet think.

I don’t disagree I just don’t understand what the point is. If it’s a casual round why does anybody care about stuff like being in a divot? I understand hitting two balls per hole when it’s not crowded or retrying a shot..that kind of stuff if it’s a practice round. I consider a casual round as that but if I’m playing an actual round, but not competing or even keeping score then what’s it matter if I’m in a divot? That’s what I’m asking. If he’s gonna play by the rules in a tournament then consider it practice in case it happens no? I’m not criticizing anyone for this I’m just asking why not just play by the rules? Unless there’s a local rule but otherwise I’m just asking.

[Slim_Pivot]

Did Hogan ever lay up to a different place rather than “collection areas” on  par 5’s or aim a tad different day to day to avoid divots or landing in his own?

Our game moves the ball in our own fairway...it isn’t due to divots, but rather the condition of the course. I did prefer high school golf where we played it down everywhere. It feels more real to me

[BushwoodCC]

Consider this: (1) player strikes the ball, creates divot, DOES NOT fill divot w sand. No relief. (2) maintenance staff creates similar “divot” (same depth, etc) only 25x larger. Paints white circle around it designating as GUR.  

See the difference? ( asking from a practical perspective, since OP was a poll as to what “should” be....

 

 

[iacas]

35 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

Consider this: (1) player strikes the ball, creates divot, DOES NOT fill divot w sand. No relief. (2) maintenance staff creates similar “divot” (same depth, etc) only 25x larger. Paints white circle around it designating as GUR.

Huh?

The maintenance staff isn’t creating a divot hole.

[boogielicious]

Frankly, I find it a bit fun and challenging to try and get the ball out of a divot. I even practice this occasionally. If you give yourself negative thoughts about the lie, you will have a negative result. If you focus a bit more and expect the ball flight to be different, you can end up with a great shot from a challenging lie. This is the type of shot you put in the thread below.

 

[BushwoodCC]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Huh?

The maintenance staff isn’t creating a divot hole.

In my example both are creating a “hole” - one is simply a larger version of the other - but they are treated differently.  I think that is why people ask the question... 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, BushwoodCC said:

In my example both are creating a “hole” - one is simply a larger version of the other - but they are treated differently.  I think that is why people ask the question... 

The maintenance staff did one. Golfers taking divot and making divot holes is not an "abnormal ground condition."

[Buckeyebowman]

On 11/25/2018 at 8:57 PM, iacas said:

Nope.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14253,Rub-Of-The-Green

Uh, yep. 

Here's a quote from phrases.org.uk regarding "Rub of the green".

Luck; especially in sports and pastimes played on a green surface.

The first citation I've found of the current, sporting meaning of the term does come from the world of golf. The rules of golf have been codified in Scotland since their first publication in 1744. In 1812 the rules included:

Whatever happens to a ball by accident, must be reckoned a Rub of the green.

OK, so the USGA doesn't define it, but maybe they should. They could have rules and decisions under the heading "How regular folks talk about all the rotten crap that can happen to them on a golf course!"

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Uh, yep.

Nope.

19 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

OK, so the USGA doesn't define it, but maybe they should. They could have rules and decisions under the heading "How regular folks talk about all the rotten crap that can happen to them on a golf course!"

OMG. They DO define it. I linked to the freaking definition.

THAT is what Rub of the Green means.

[Vinsk]

25 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

OK, so the USGA doesn't define it, but maybe they should.

Ok...be honest...did you follow the link and read it? Gotta razz ya a bit on that one.

[Rulesman]

The Oxford English Dictionary (1931)* defines rub more specifically in the context of bowls (a game which predates golf by centuries)

An obstacle or impediment by which a bowl is hindered in, or diverted from its proper course; also the fact of the bowl meeting with such impediment.

The origin of the term "rub of the green" seems clear. The natural and expected curving of the bowl toward the jack is a rub. A bowl that is deflected by the uneven ground of the green is called a rub of the green. Adaptation of this concept to golf was natural because of the similarities in playing a ball to a target over a green. (See below.)

The idea that rub means bad luck simply has no support in the definition or early uses of the term. (Even Shakespeare's famous "…aye there's the rub…" does not mean bad luck; Hamlet was musing about whether he would dream if he "slept" permanently (i.e. died). But death, though appearing like sleep, was the "rub" [i.e. obstruction, impediment] to dreaming.) The sources make it clear that "rub" means to impede, interfere, obstruct. Such action may be bad luck, but the term does not mean that.

But rub makes an appearance as a noun in the late 16^th century in the gloriously titled The Paine of Pleasure published in 1580 and attributed to Anthony Munday. In describing the delights and tribulation of playing a game of bowls, the fourteenth pleasure, he wrote, “How some delight to see a round bowl run/ smoothly away, until he catch a rub:/ then hold thy bias, if that cast were won/ the game were up as sure then as a club”.  Rub is clearly being used as some kind of imperfection in the bowling green, an obstacle or impediment to a true lie.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Rulesman

[iacas]

I'm not sure what the point of all that was. We aren't living in the late 16th century, and this discussion is in the Rules of Golf forum. Hence, "Rub of the Green" means what it's defined to mean.

The definition isn't included in the 2019 Rules, so it'll likely shift over time to mean "bad luck," since that's how people have mis-interpreted it to be. 😛

[HJJ003]

Surprised I haven't answered this yet. The answer to me is no it shouldn't be considered GUR if your ball finds a Fairway divot. Sometimes golf is just hard.....not to mention its just another challenge to rise up to. 

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Surprised I haven't answered this yet. The answer to me is no it shouldn't be considered GUR if your ball finds a Fairway divot. Sometimes golf is just hard.....not to mention its just another challenge to rise up to. 

That, and I like having an excuse for my bad shots 🤪

[Fourputt]

On 11/25/2018 at 7:09 PM, Vinsk said:

I've never really understood this. Why? It's just golf right? Whether you're playing in a tournament or just a casual round, what's the big deal with playing it as it lies? If you shoot your best round you'll just have to remember you fudged it up and thus won't really have that good feeling. And if you hit a bad shot, well...there ya go. How many times do you find yourself in a divot to where if you land in one you're just like...yeah no...not gonna play that ball today, I've had it! Not trying to hammer you here, just don't see any real benefit from moving your ball. 

I am with Vinsk on this, for 2 reasons.  One:  If you always play the ball "down" by the rules, even in casual rounds, you won't get any surprises when playing a competition.  Two:  It would make me sick to shoot a personal best, only to have it invalidated by not having played a proper round of golf.  For me, every round is a new chance for a milestone, although at age 72, those markers are getting harder to find.

Having to play from a divot hole is such a rare occurrence that it does little or nothing to really affect one's score.  I've hit some really good shots from nasty lies, including from some quite significant divot holes, and it always feels especially good when I can successfully meet the challenge of adversity.  To me, that's one of golf's real joys.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Fourputt