Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[nevets88]

That was good tv. I would love a 1/2 - 1 hour segment of that, both given prep time. And stats and video presented. To me that was intense given the format. To a layperson I'd imagine it's like 2 political candidates arguing about the economy, both quoting Nobel winners. Lee Trevino swung empirically? WTF? More fuel for the fire? Wondering if this belongs more in the instruction forum.

[Gunther]

Neither scored a win there, but I'm giving the victory to Nobilo. [LIST] [*] Tiger won five times last year with a very similar swing. [*] The camera angle was terrible on that wedge shot. [*] Nobilo is right about the launch angle versus handle forward thing. They're pretty closely linked. [/LIST]

Not sure I agree. Chamblee had facts and figures and they even showed the forward shaft lean to which he was referring. Frank relied on emotion and to me came off as a Tiger homer (I really admire Nobilo). More interesting, I thought, was Begay's reaction to Chamblee: "That is certainly not what is happening with Tiger." Just completely rendered BCham's entire argument false because he knows and has somewhat recently played with Tiger. As with many things, the truth is probably somewhere in-between but I felt Chamblee commanded his position effectively.

[saevel25]

Not sure I agree. Chamblee had facts and figures and they even showed the forward shaft lean to which he was referring. Frank relied on emotion and to me came off as a Tiger homer (I really admire Nobilo).

More interesting, I thought, was Begay's reaction to Chamblee: "That is certainly not what is happening with Tiger." Just completely rendered BCham's entire argument false because he knows and has somewhat recently played with Tiger.

As with many things, the truth is probably somewhere in-between but I felt Chamblee commanded his position effectively.

I am not fluent enough with Trackman to analyse all that wanting to zero the path. I am honestly not sure Tiger wants to zero the path at all. I think he probably wanted to become less stuck, less coming from the inside the ball. I can see were he would want to hit cuts all the time, so at least he's not hooking it left.

This is from 2013. I would say Chamblee is correct in that Tiger does have some forward shaft lean. He also does move his head back and away from the target during the swing. I drew an orange line of what an inline position would be. I am not sure if Tiger is leaning back to help get the ball up in the air. I can't say if this is actually causing his back issues or not. Honestly I don't think Chamblee has the background to make that assertion either. I don't believe Chamblee has a degree is biomechanics and sports medicine.

[Gunther]

I am not fluent enough with Trackman to analyse all that wanting to zero the path. I am honestly not sure Tiger wants to zero the path at all. I think he probably wanted to become less stuck, less coming from the inside the ball. I can see were he would want to hit cuts all the time, so at least he's not hooking it left. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/103608/] [/URL]        [U][COLOR=555555][URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/103607/] [/URL][/COLOR][/U] This is from 2013. I would say Chamblee is correct in that Tiger does have some forward shaft lean. He also does move his head back and away from the target during the swing. I drew an orange line of what an inline position would be. I am not sure if Tiger is leaning back to help get the ball up in the air. I can't say if this is actually causing his back issues or not. Honestly I don't think Chamblee has the background to make that assertion either. I don't believe Chamblee has a degree is biomechanics and sports medicine.

Wow, it does look dramatic with the lines drawn. And yes, I hear you relative to what's creating the back issue. BCham is no doc but his position seemed pretty plausible.

[14ledo81]

Hmmm.. I've seen that pic before. Look familiar @cipher ?

[saevel25]

Wow, it does look dramatic with the lines drawn. And yes, I hear you relative to what's creating the back issue. BCham is no doc but his position seemed pretty plausible.

The problem is, Chamblee doesn't talk in "Plausible". Chamblee is all about, "THIS IS WHY IT HAPPENED".

[9iron]

The problem is, Chamblee doesn't talk in "Plausible". Chamblee is all about, "THIS IS WHY IT HAPPENED".

So what? That is his opnion, so why shouldn't he voice it? Everyone knows it is his vision of why Tiger is ailing, as opposed to being a true indisputable fact. He may still be correct, too. That pic is worth a thousand words, and when all else fails trust your own eyes over everything else.

[9iron]

Neither scored a win there, but I'm giving the victory to Nobilo.

Tiger won five times last year with a very similar swing.

The camera angle was terrible on that wedge shot.

Nobilo is right about the launch angle versus handle forward thing. They're pretty closely linked.

Tiger once won with a totally different swing, until he could no longer make that swing because it was injuring him or hurting him. It seems very plausible that he could make the current swing last year, but maybe not make it any more without it injuring or hurting him now. Everyone who has suffered a repetitive stress injury would tell you trhat what hurts them now they once could do without pain. That seems perfectly analagous here. .

[cipher]

Hmmm.. I've seen that pic before. Look familiar @cipher ?

Unfortunately. :-D

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9iron

Tiger once won with a totally different swing, until he could no longer make that swing because it was injuring him or hurting

Prove it?

1994, Tiger had to have knee surgery back then on that knee. He had two tumors on his left knee that were causing him pain, and had the scar tissue removed.

In 2002 he had to have fluid drained from his left knee.

2007, Tiger ruptures his ACL while taking a misstep while running on a golf course. (Not Swing Related)

April 2008, Tiger has surgery on his left knee again

June 2008, Tiger suffers Stress Fractures in his left leg (Tibia). He goes on to win the US Open later that month, then ops to have reconstructive surgery on the left knee for the ACL.

Dec. 2008, Tiger Ruptures the Achilles Tendon in his right leg

May 2010, He withdraws from the PGA Championship due to inflammation in the neck.

April 2011, Tiger sprains his MCL and Left Achilles while taking a swing on the Pine Straw at the Masters.

March 2012, Tiger Withdraws due to injury to his left Achilles

August 2013, Tiger injures his back.

March 2014, Tiger has surgery to eliminate a pinched nerve in his back.

Here is the point of this. Back when he was under Butch Harmon he had knee issues. He had knee issues before he was a PGA Professional.

The golf swing would not cause a stress fracture.

Quote:

Stress fractures are caused by the repetitive application of force, often by overuse — such as repeatedly jumping up and down or running long distances.

The stress fracture was probably caused by his exercise routine. I think Hank Haney claimed he liked run in Combat Boots for long distances. All those knee issues in 2008 are probably associated with his exercise routine, not his golf swing.

2011, Tiger actually injures his knee swinging, but does so on loose Pine Straw. It was the same leg he's had issues with his whole career. Not really his swing that caused it, but the conditions he found himself in on the course.

I would say majority of his issues come from early in his career having that left knee problem, and his excessive exercise routine back when he was working under Hank Haney. He didn't do his leg any service doing long distance running.

Now has the swing caused his lower back issues. I am not sure. It could be trying to push himself to get back to playing too early. Maybe he compensated in his swing to keep the pain off his left leg.

[RandallT]

Not sure I agree. Chamblee had facts and figures and they even showed the forward shaft lean to which he was referring. Frank relied on emotion and to me came off as a Tiger homer (I really admire Nobilo).

More interesting, I thought, was Begay's reaction to Chamblee: "That is certainly not what is happening with Tiger." Just completely rendered BCham's entire argument false because he knows and has somewhat recently played with Tiger.

As with many things, the truth is probably somewhere in-between but I felt Chamblee commanded his position effectively.

I thought Chamblee was the most passionate about his position and was the most willing to go to the stats to prove his point, but I wasn't convinced. Even if everything he said is true with the angles and the leaning back, who is to say that those few degrees would be significant for back injury. Wouldn't you need some sort of biological explanation why just those few degrees of change would be the difference between a healthy vs an injured back?

Nobilo also brings up a great point about the launch angles for Tiger going up steadily over the years. So if shaft lean is more now, I guess Chamblee's point is that makes Tigers lean back even more pronounced to get the higher launch angle? I'd be interested in more analysis of the angles over the years. If he leans the shaft a couple degrees more forward, and his launch is a few degrees more upward, wouldn't he need to lean back the sum of those two angle differences?

I thought Nobilo skepticism was more compelling than Chamblee's certainty.  But I love the topic. Interesting stuff, and all the more interesting when they go at it. Good television to me.

[9iron]

Prove it?

You actually need proof? Really???? Seriously??? I thought everyone in the golf world knew that Tiger's swing when he came on tour (and likely subsequent incarnations as well) placed too much stress on his left knee.

OK. In Tiger's own words.

Woods said he is working on a swing which prevents injury but allows him to perform at his best.

'I'm always trying to get a little bit better, but also, I'm trying to play around injuries I've had in the past,' he said in response to a question from Roger Maltbie. 'I'm trying to get a swing to ease that stress on the knee over the years, ... but also play at a high level at the same time.'

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/tiger-hopes-new-swing-will-ease-knee-stress/

[Gunther]

You actually need proof? Really???? Seriously??? I thought everyone in the golf world knew that Tiger's swing when he came on tour (and likely subsequent incarnations as well) placed too much stress on his left knee. OK. In Tiger's own words. Woods said he is working on a swing which prevents injury but allows him to perform at his best. 'I'm always trying to get a little bit better, but also, I'm trying to play around injuries I've had in the past,' he said in response to a question from Roger Maltbie. 'I'm trying to get a swing to ease that stress on the knee over the years, ... but also play at a high level at the same time.' [URL=http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/tiger-hopes-new-swing-will-ease-knee-stress/]http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/tiger-hopes-new-swing-will-ease-knee-stress/[/URL]

Agree. If Tiger's swing then didn't constitute a "repeated application of force", I'm not sure what would.

[saevel25]

You actually need proof? Really???? Seriously??? I thought everyone in the golf world knew that Tiger's swing when he came on tour (and likely subsequent incarnations as well) placed too much stress on his left knee.

OK. In Tiger's own words.

Woods said he is working on a swing which prevents injury but allows him to perform at his best.

'I'm always trying to get a little bit better, but also, I'm trying to play around injuries I've had in the past,' he said in response to a question from Roger Maltbie. 'I'm trying to get a swing to ease that stress on the knee over the years, ... but also play at a high level at the same time.'

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/tiger-hopes-new-swing-will-ease-knee-stress/

He never said that the swing was the reason for his injuries. I could easily have back issues from a totally different reason, and my golf swing could just be keeping me from having it fully heal.

Agree. If Tiger's swing then didn't constitute a "repeated application of force", I'm not sure what would.

Because stress fractures are caused by pounding your feet into the ground constantly, like actually jumping, or running on hard pavement, running in shoes not designed for running. Soccer players and Football players get stress fractures from running. Tiger isn't running on a golf course.

[9iron]

He never said that the swing was the reason for his injuries. I could easily have back issues from a totally different reason, and my golf swing could just be keeping me from having it fully heal.

Because stress fractures are caused by pounding your feet into the ground constantly, like actually jumping, or running on hard pavement, running in shoes not designed for running. Soccer players and Football players get stress fractures from running. Tiger isn't running on a golf course.

LOL. You keep believing that if it suits you. I'll use my good common sense.

[Gunther]

He never said that the swing was the reason for his injuries. I could easily have back issues from a totally different reason, and my golf swing could just be keeping me from having it fully heal.  Because stress fractures are caused by pounding your feet into the ground constantly, like actually jumping, or running on hard pavement, running in shoes not designed for running. Soccer players and Football players get stress fractures from running. Tiger isn't running on a golf course.

Nah, it was widely known and acknowledged that the snapping of his left knee during his swing is what created his knee problems. That was much more violent than running. He actively pursued a new swing that was easier on the knee.

[saevel25]

Nah, it was widely known and acknowledged that the snapping of his left knee during his swing is what created his knee problems. That was much more violent than running. He actively pursued a new swing that was easier on the knee.

My response to you was on stress fractures, not knee ligaments. The quote you talked about above was only on stress fractures in his tibia.

[ChrisP]

I'm not one of these Tiger lovers, nor am I Tiger hater. I respect the heck out of him for what he's done for the game and love watching him when he's at his best. But if I hear one more person say "he showed a lot of heart yesterday" I'm never going to watch TGC again. Jesus, listening to Nobilo and Begay kiss this guy's ass makes me sick. The guy said he was fully healthy and felt no pain, but yet he's showing a lot of heart by playing? Really? This is where I defend Chamblee because he's not one of these guys who goes on the air and makes you sick by saying "he's showing so much heart out there."