Determining Out of Bounds

[RickK]

Cost?? What can a handful of 1"X1" wooden stakes that are 2' in length cost? I'm gonna guess $1 a piece.

So, what other reason then would you give to excuse the course?

That is the excuse every golf course I have ever seen that was not properly marked comes up with when you question them.  "We just can't add all the OB markers we need because of cost".  Just like, "Well, we would paint the inside of the cup above the liner but it "cost" money."

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

So, what other reason then would you give to excuse the course?

I don't know. I think it boils down to laziness. Maybe a stake or 2 were damaged or lost and never put back in place. I just can't see "cost" being the reason for white stakes not being there. The cost of stakes is almost nothing at all. It's $1 for an 8' length. You can get 4 of them out of it. After a can of white paint, they cost you .50 cents each.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The OB margin is straight line between the course side edges of the stakes. See the Definition.

The reason white lines are not widely used is cost. In particular man hours. They wash or grow out frequently.

I understand that rule. A lot of times I'll just play what the course looks like. So if a white stake is missing, I'll go by intent. If OB is marked by White stakes along a tree line and there is a segment that curves. You know the OB is the tree, brush area. It's obvious. To me it's pretty stupid to penalize a golfer for laziness of the course. Especially when the ball is clearly playable on the course.

You can make that assumption if you want, but you are in the wrong if you do.  I've played lots of trees and brush which are in bounds and in play.  I couldn't just assume a stake was missing without evidence to that effect, and I don't know how you prove something is supposed to be there if it isn't.

[RickK]

I don't know. I think it boils down to laziness. Maybe a stake or 2 were damaged or lost and never put back in place. I just can't see "cost" being the reason for white stakes not being there. The cost of stakes is almost nothing at all.

It's $1 for an 8' length. You can get 4 of them out of it. After a can of white paint, they cost you .50 cents each.

I don't own or run the course(s), I just play there.  You can sell me on the cost all day long.  If you can't sell the courses, and they are everywhere I travel, you are not going to rectify the issue and the #1 excuse is COST.  As a matter of fact, Myrtle Beach is full of courses poorly marked.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I don't own or run the course(s), I just play there.  You can sell me on the cost all day long.  If you can't sell the courses, and they are everywhere I travel, you are not going to rectify the issue and the #1 excuse is COST.  As a matter of fact, Myrtle Beach is full of courses poorly marked.

I'm just finding it odd that COST can be a major reason why courses are poorly marked, when it costs just pennies to put up a stake? That's all I'm saying. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[jsgolfer]

I'm just finding it odd that COST can be a major reason why courses are poorly marked, when it costs just pennies to put up a stake? That's all I'm saying. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm with you, I just think most people are lazy and don't think it is a big deal.  Another thing I've seen is that home owners will remove the stake and throw it away.

[Braivo]

I'm with you, I just think most people are lazy and don't think it is a big deal.  Another thing I've seen is that home owners will remove the stake and throw it away.

My guess is that 95%+ of golfers don't follow the rules nor do they care to. The golf course is isn't going to gain any extra business by carefully staking the OB throughout the course, it is the least of their concerns. Is that right, no, but it is reality. They make their money on the beer guzzling Saturday morning foursomes that use foot wedges and mulligans and brag about their 78 over lunch in the clubhouse. $$$ The guys counting every stroke, bringing their own water on the course, and trying to sneak a round in before they go back to their families are not their core market, unfortunately.

Now I have seen courses where the groundskeeper is a committed golfer and he takes time to mark OB and hazards properly. Cost is not the issue, it's time and resources of the staff, as well as lack of golf experience among the staff.

[jsgolfer]

My guess is that 95%+ of golfers don't follow the rules nor do they care to. The golf course is isn't going to gain any extra business by carefully staking the OB throughout the course, it is the least of their concerns. Is that right, no, but it is reality. They make their money on the beer guzzling Saturday morning foursomes that use foot wedges and mulligans and brag about their 78 over lunch in the clubhouse. $$$ The guys counting every stroke, bringing their own water on the course, and trying to sneak a round in before they go back to their families are not their core market, unfortunately.

Now I have seen courses where the groundskeeper is a committed golfer and he takes time to mark OB and hazards properly. Cost is not the issue, it's time and resources of the staff, as well as lack of golf experience among the staff.

My course, is typically well defined, we have a very good maintenance staff.  Plus we hold lots of tournaments, so the course markings are usually always good.  Plus we have one of he top rules officials in the country as a member, so he is always on top of that stuff.

Clyde Luther served as NCAA Division I head Rules official from 2000-11. Over his career he has officiated 21 NCAA Division I, II and III championships. He also serves as head Rules official for the Atlantic Coast Conference Championship, a post he has held since 1991. Luther has served as a Rules official at the Palmer Cup and many regular season collegiate events over the years.

Outside of college golf, Luther has been a veteran rules official at countless VSGA events, has worked more than 120 USGA championships and officiated at three Presidents Cups, as well as at the Masters Tournament and the PGA Championship.

[DaveP043]

My course, is typically well defined, we have a very good maintenance staff.  Plus we hold lots of tournaments, so the course markings are usually always good.  Plus we have one of he top rules officials in the country as a member, so he is always on top of that stuff.

Clyde Luther served as NCAA Division I head Rules official from 2000-11. Over his career he has officiated 21 NCAA Division I, II and III championships. He also serves as head Rules official for the Atlantic Coast Conference Championship, a post he has held since 1991. Luther has served as a Rules official at the Palmer Cup and many regular season collegiate events over the years.

Outside of college golf, Luther has been a veteran rules official at countless VSGA events, has worked more than 120 USGA championships and officiated at three Presidents Cups, as well as at the Masters Tournament and the PGA Championship.

Quit bragging, Jerry!!  To be fair, you're right, your course was in great shape when I played it in April.  Plus, you have one of the nicest assistant pros around, who just happened to have interned at Stoneleigh last year.

[DrvFrShow]

If they really want the curved boundary, get some additional white stakes and pound them into the ground. If I play the course I'm drawing a straight line between stakes, sorry, that's the rule in the book.

[Carl3]

Reviving this old thread as it seems most relevant to my question on "what is OB". I was playing a casual round by myself yesterday early in the AM. I pull my tee shot that lands near a road and then rolls across the road to the far side. I tee another up and land near the fairway. I was going to forget about the first tee shot, buy a man taking an early morning stroll points out where my ball ended up. I take a look and it is a great lie. I put it to 15 feet with my 54*, just miss my birdie putt and have a tap-in for par. Or do I? Here is the plan view of the hole:

There are no white stakes anywhere, so I didn't think anything of it at the time. Here is a street view:

Now I picked up my 2019 version of the Rules of Golf and found this 

2.1 Course Boundaries and Out of Bounds: Golf is played on a course whose boundaries are set by the Committee. Areas not on the course are out of bounds.

The second sentence leads me to believe that the ball was out of bounds as it was not on the course. It is unusual for me to be there, but lots of people wind up over there. I have a two-day tournament coming up here, so I want to be prepared. I suppose I could inquire in the clubhouse about the composition of the "committee" and then ask them, but short of that what does this community think?

 

 

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Carl3 said:

Now I picked up my 2019 version of the Rules of Golf and found this 

2.1 Course Boundaries and Out of Bounds: Golf is played on a course whose boundaries are set by the Committee. Areas not on the course are out of bounds.

The second sentence leads me to believe that the ball was out of bounds as it was not on the course. 

 

Does the club/course or local authority own the road?

Edited July 19 by Rulesman

[Carl3]

43 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Does the club/course or local authority own the road?

County road 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Carl3 said:

2.1 Course Boundaries and Out of Bounds: Golf is played on a course whose boundaries are set by the Committee. Areas not on the course are out of bounds.

The second sentence leads me to believe that the ball was out of bounds as it was not on the course. It is unusual for me to be there, but lots of people wind up over there. I have a two-day tournament coming up here, so I want to be prepared. I suppose I could inquire in the clubhouse about the composition of the "committee" and then ask them, but short of that what does this community think?

It boils down to this: it's the Committee's responsibility to mark or define OB. Absent that, your ball was in bounds.

Now, it may say on the card or somewhere else that the road defines OB on holes 5, 6, 14, and 17 or something. Or they could have stakes (but they don't seem to on this hole), or a line, or a fence… or a hedge row (though that'd be somewhat ambiguous, I've seen it done).

Again absent those things… the ball is in bounds, even if it's clearly across the street in the parking lot of a shopping mall.

[Rulesman]

I don't normally disagree with Erik but I'm afraid I do this time.

The Definition only says: 

"The boundary edge should be defined by boundary objects or lines:.."

When defined by other objects ....... the Committee should define the boundary edge.

As it's on someone else's land, it's not on the course and OB

Edited July 19 by Rulesman

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

I don't normally disagree with Erik but I'm afraid I do this time.

Has your stance on this changed since 2015?

59 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

The Definition only says: 

"The boundary edge should be defined by boundary objects or lines:.."

When defined by other objects ....... the Committee should define the boundary edge.

As it's on someone else's land, it's not on the course and OB

You seem to be getting caught up in mixing up common definitions and the Rules of Golf. Heck, we have internal OB and OB that's on course-owned property. Ownership of the common definition of the "course" or whatever doesn't determine what the "course" is as far as the Rules of Golf.

The course is defined by the Committee. Absent a boundary, the course extends to infinity.

Quote

All areas outside the boundary edge of the course as defined by the Committee. All areas inside that edge are in bounds.

If the Committee hasn't provided that boundary, you can't just make up your own.

---

You seem to have forgotten that a decade ago you argued the other side of this, and I was on your current side. I thought that since the Rules of Golf allow you to treat an unmarked water hazard (as they were at the time) as a water hazard, we could do the same for areas that are clearly OB. I thought I had made a joke about being in the parking lot of a 7-11, but it may have been on another site.

I was wrong.

I talked to several people at the USGA, and they all backed up that if there is no boundary (marked or defined), the ball is in bounds.

[Rulesman]

Crikey, I have difficulty in remembering what happened last week never mind 10 years ago 😉

Thanks for putting me right.

Was the old discussion here or on RG?

 

 

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Thanks for putting me right.

Was the old discussion here or on RG?

It was here, too, and I'll link to a few topics and posts, including one of yours in which I got this all wrong. Which is why it's one of the questions I've asked about 10+ different USGA people. 😄 

Including Thomas Pagel, Kathryn Belanger, and others.

On 8/17/2022 at 4:49 PM, iacas said:

Years back we had a topic where I asked the USGA if a ball was across the street in the parking lot of a gas station, if you could — as you can for a penalty area (then a water hazard) — use the definition to say "yeah, my ball is OB" as you can when your ball is in a pond or a stream.

They said no, and I countered with "then technically someone can be DQed for practicing on the golf course" if they're hitting balls in their yards in the direction of the gas station before the round. And technically, they would be…

Long story short: the committee MUST mark boundary lines. Sometimes it doesn't matter - like the boundary is the edge of a cliff and you're not going to find your ball if it goes over anyway. But sometimes, like here, it matters. Is the neighboring course in bounds? Or out?

On 8/23/2015 at 8:59 PM, ColinL said:

There are only two ways in which the boundary  or part of the boundary of a course can be established  in terms of the Rules - by its being marked with white lines/stakes or by the Committee's definition of that boundary in the local rules. In the absence of both of these, then,  in terms of the Rules, there is no limit to the golf course whether across a street, into a backyard or across the Atlantic/Pacific ocean. There seems to me a lot of confusion in this thread between the situation according to the Rules and the pragmatic resolution of a problem  on the ground where a Committee has failed in its duty to define the boundaries of the course.   In the event of such a failure, then all manner of absurdities could arise by way of places we might theoretically play from and obviously players will seek a sensible solution in the middle of a game.

To put it another way, just because in the area described by the OP there will  be a line on a cadastral map which shows where the land owned by the course meets the land owned by the householders, in the absence of any markings by the Committee or of a definition of the course boundary, a player could, in terms of the Rules,  play from  anywhere - a backyard, the street beyond,  through the open window of someone's living room.

I've emphasised "in terms of the Rules", fully appreciating the absurd and impracticable situations  that a Committee's failure to define the boundary can create.  The only way in which the problem the OP raised can be resolved in terms of the Rule is for the Committee to  mark or define the boundary.  All else that has been mentioned, as I see it, comprises a variety of practical solutions to encountering a problem during a game.  It is  fair enough for players to come up with such solutions in order to get on with it,  but not one of them is valid rules-wise. The only legimate action if your balls lies in what seems obviously someone's garden in the OP's description,  is to play the ball as it lies or deem it unplayable Legitimate is not necessarily the same thing as practicable or sensible or even safe! Which is why when a tournament is to be held on a course, the TD will ensure that all markings and definitions are in place, adding to or changing what is already there as necessary.

It's not uncommon, however, to have courses which do not have boundaries in part or in whole - deliberately not by Committee neglect.  The Old Course at St Andrews has a mixture of no defined boundary and marked boundary.  The Irish amateur who achieved the distinction of leading the way in to the 4th round, put a tee shot so far to the right on one hole he was on the putting green of  a different course, but in bounds.  Phil Mickelson, on the other hand, chose where he played a loose tee shot less wisely, ending up on a balcony of the Old Course Hotel which was very clearly out of bounds.  I have refereed on another Scottish course where on one side it borders on another course.  There is intentionally no marked or defined boundary between them  and it is thus legitimate to play from one course back to the other.

This topic below (from which I took a few of the quotes above) devolved into a discussion of unmarked OB:

And, I came to learn that I was wrong about my stance in that, which is pretty much what you seem to now be saying.