Education in the U.S.

[jamo]

As someone with just over $300,000 in student loan debt, I agree with the [COLOR=181818]Silhouette [/COLOR]man. So would my wife, but she only has about $250,000 in student loan debt.

Are you both doctors or lawyers?

[mdl]

The reason is there are less CEO's than chemical engineers,  CEO's that have a proven track record are like movie stars and athletes, they get to name their price.  CEO's have less job security than Chem E's and a smaller job pool to find a new job.  GE probably has 100,000's engineers working for them but only one CEO.  When the business struggles financially the CEO is usually blamed in public companies, sure there may be layoffs that affect the Chem E too but look at the average tenure for a CEO versus a Chem E.

To set the record straight, I don't think anyone is worth $20M a year but the media attacks the CEO's in business for the money they make yet but overlook the athletes and actors who make even more.

Entertainers or athletes have nothing to do with it.  They're entirely incomparable.  CEOs make so much money due to two main reasons.  The first is straight fraud.  When you and your buddies all sit on each other's boards and get to set your own remunerations, guess what happens?  Do you think it skyrockets or stays similar in real terms?  Do you think its relationship to any possible measure of success magically disappears or stays strong?  Two is our move towards a sort of corporatocracy.  When the federal government is bought and paid for and spends 30 years crushing labor rights and rewriting laws, regulations, and the tax code to make sure capital and top management (the owners funders) can extract all possible rents and prevent any gains from increased productivity going to anyone but ownership and top management, what do you think happens?

Surprise, the median wage for a man (the dominant sex in the workforce at the beginning of this trend) doesn't increase for 30+ years.  CEO pay skyrockets.  Share of income going to capital hits levels not seen since robber baron days.

I like Silhouette man...

[Golfingdad]

As someone with just over $300,000 in student loan debt, I agree with the Silhouette man. So would my wife, but she only has about $250,000 in student loan debt.

Are you both doctors or lawyers?

As much as I missed not having a "real" college experience (moving away, living in a dorm or frat, etc) I don't mind at all not having any student loan debt (or even ever having a student loan to begin with).

Good old State college!

[dsc123]

Are you both doctors or lawyers?

Lawyers, yeah.  They produce all sorts of misleading stats to make you think that everyone gets jobs and makes tons of money as soon as they graduate.  Turns out only to be true for the top 5 or 10% in the class (or the Harvards of the world).  Which would be fine, had we not taken out all those loans.  We were both lucky to get jobs right away, but I'm five years out and we still can't even afford to make payments on some of the loans.

As much as I missed not having a "real" college experience (moving away, living in a dorm or frat, etc) I don't mind at all not having any student loan debt (or even ever having a student loan to begin with).

Good old State college!

I didn't have much undergrad debt and paid off the little that I had.  That $300k is all grad school. But I will certainly be sending my kids to state school.  I was actually about to go to a state school when I got off the waiting list at another school.  The state school would have cost less than 1/3 the tuition, and probably 1/10 the living expenses (Buffalo vs. DC).  But when you're young, stupid, and mislead by schools..well...you get a mortgage without a house.

[Stretch]

I remember working on the big bankruptcy law overhaul in DC about 10 years ago. The second largest influencer -- i.e. cash contributed to buy "access" -- after the credit card companies was the education industry. They made absolutely sure that student loan debt would not be dischargeable under any circumstances.

[dsc123]

I remember working on the big bankruptcy law overhaul in DC about 10 years ago. The second largest influencer -- i.e. cash contributed to buy "access" -- after the credit card companies was the education industry. They made absolutely sure that student loan debt would not be dischargeable under any circumstances.

It makes sense, because students might just graduate and then declare bankruptcy to wipe out all the loans.  But together with the government guarantees, we end up with a system where the lenders face little risk and therefore blindly give out loans to anyone who wants them, up to the amount guaranteed by the government.  I mean, we thought it was bad when people with low credit were getting mortgages...the student loan lenders don't care about credit worthiness or ability to repay at all.

[Golfingdad]

That $300k is all grad school.

Ahh, I see.  Yeah, even back when I was in college (90's) and even at "lowly" state schools, graduate school was very expensive!!!

[Stretch]

It makes sense, because students might just graduate and then declare bankruptcy to wipe out all the loans.  But together with the government guarantees, we end up with a system where the lenders face little risk and therefore blindly give out loans to anyone who wants them, up to the amount guaranteed by the government.  I mean, we thought it was bad when people with low credit were getting mortgages...the student loan lenders don't care about credit worthiness or ability to repay at all.

For just this reason, there is definitely a "student loan bubble"  that is yet to unwind. Kind of goes hand in hand with the insanities of US health care.

[mdl]

That $300k is all grad school.

This is why I got a PhD.  I was poor into my 30s But they paid me (barely) to go to school, so no debt

[iacas]

It makes sense, because students might just graduate and then declare bankruptcy to wipe out all the loans.  But together with the government guarantees, we end up with a system where the lenders face little risk and therefore blindly give out loans to anyone who wants them, up to the amount guaranteed by the government.  I mean, we thought it was bad when people with low credit were getting mortgages...the student loan lenders don't care about credit worthiness or ability to repay at all.

I think that's a very good point.

The government just recently helped people who were upside down on houses, didn't it? So why not help students with student loans? And I'm not talking about the "if you serve in the ROTC or the military" level stuff here.

I'm also generally against more and more entitlement programs, so that's probably not actually something I'd support. I would support lowering the cost of education, however. I don't know how - maybe more companies do on-the-job training (at a cost or free, I don't know) and place less emphasis on a college degree.

[k-troop]

Interesting issue.

I have 3 degrees.  I have spent exactly zero dollars on my education.  I have been very, very lucky:  I went to West Point for undergrad (for free) and to the University of Texas for law school (also for free).  I'm not sure how I managed to luck into that, but I did.  I have "paid" for my education with military service, but to me it feels like a windfall, because I also feel very lucky to have the privilege of serving as an officer in the U.S. Army.

I agree with silhouette man: education is important. I would posit that it's more relevant to our security than tanks, and probably more predictive of future economic power than our tax structure.  In true American form, we're a very immediate gratification country.  We don't invest, we spend.  I have a feeling we'll figure it out pretty soon.

[GolfLug]

Good discussion. I am a product of two systems. I earned a bachelor degree in engieering completely free and a Master's degree for which I paid for with a loan of 28K, research assistance,etc. and currently run the engineering department of a $70 Million/year company. I was debt free in 4 years after graduating. My starting salary was comaparable to a teacher's here in Virginia. I have a very simplistic view of cost of education in US. I think the economics of supply and demand of college degrees are not that fundamentally different anywhere in the world. While high school education is a given, college education is a bankable commodity (or atleast should be), for the provider and the recipient anywhere. Someone, somewhere, somepoint has to pay for it. Either the goverment as in Nordic countires, that treats it as an investment or the students here in the US as, also, as a long term investment. In lot of cases, the company they will be hired by. I have 6 full time degreed engineers in my staff that have between 24 and 2 years of prior experience. Our company pays for their continued education that is directly related to the job. A 3 credit course cost between $1,800 and $2,400 depending on which local college they go to and wether it is online or not. I can tell you, we gladly pay this cost because it pays off in no time as far as the benefit to the company. I also see first hand why an related degree would have no use for actual application in real world. So at the end of the day, free education or not unless if it is an absolute labor of love, major/minor degree selection is paramount for the ROI. To the OPs point Nordic countries (combine population of 24 million, which is considerably less than a large state in the US like California) have an educational 'program' that is socialized. There are places in US that actually do the same thing. e.g. when I worked in MI some years ago in the automotive industry (big 3), I would frequently have to visit the city of Kalamazoo. They had a great program for retaining 'talent'. Wikipedia quote: "The public schools are managed by Kalamazoo Public Schools. Every resident graduate of the Kalamazoo Public Schools is provided with a scholarship for up to 100% of tuition and mandatory fee costs for four years at any public university or community college in Michigan, starting with the class of 2006. This program is known as the Kalamazoo Promise." High end tuition college educations can in many cases be a waste and a life long burden but there are plenty of colleges in the US that are practical and reasonable, EVERYWHERE. As one poster mentioned, peronal responsibility and informed decisions when selecting are paramount.

[14ledo81]

On my phone so I will be brief. I do not have a college degree. I started working in the plumbing/HVAC trade at the age of 20. At 25 I started a 5 year plumbing apprenticeship. Part of the terms of the apprenticeship was that my employer had to pay me to go to the day school (9 days a semester). I "graduated" with my plumbing degree and had no school debt. I was then promoted into a management position. Wage did not really change, but work conditions are nicer. Our journeyman plumbers all follow a similar route. No school bills and a decent wage ($27-$29 an hour) upon completion. At times, on prevailing wage jobs, they can get paid up to $50 an hour. I really feel that college is pushed to much these days. It seems less and less people join the trades now. There really is good paying jobs available for people who are willing to work hard and put the time (apprenticeship) in. Edit: Silhouette man might feel a bit different about the USA's military spending if he was from one of the countries that benefits from it.

[billchao]

I really feel that college is pushed to much these days. It seems less and less people join the trades now. There really is good paying jobs available for people who are willing to work hard and put the time (apprenticeship) in.

I tell young people this ALL the time. A lot of kids (speaking from experience) get ready to graduate high school with absolutely no idea what they want to do or study. I always like to bring to their attention that a trade and trade schools are options available to them. Not everybody is a good fit in academia. I always tell them they don't have to choose a college or university, but they HAVE to be educated. The worst possible position one can put themselves in is undereducated. The ceiling is pretty low for unskilled labor. Sometimes I feel that if I had been shown that a technical school was a viable option after high school, I wouldn't have acquired so much debt from student loans, and I'd be further along in my career. It's not like I didn't gain any value from the education, but I put a decent amount of time and money into fields of study that I may never realize a return on.

[Stretch]

The presentation is annoying, but there are some sobering statistics.

[jamo]

On my phone so I will be brief. I do not have a college degree. I started working in the plumbing/HVAC trade at the age of 20. At 25 I started a 5 year plumbing apprenticeship. Part of the terms of the apprenticeship was that my employer had to pay me to go to the day school (9 days a semester). I "graduated" with my plumbing degree and had no school debt. I was then promoted into a management position. Wage did not really change, but work conditions are nicer. Our journeyman plumbers all follow a similar route. No school bills and a decent wage ($27-$29 an hour) upon completion. At times, on prevailing wage jobs, they can get paid up to $50 an hour. I really feel that college is pushed to much these days. It seems less and less people join the trades now. There really is good paying jobs available for people who are willing to work hard and put the time (apprenticeship) in.

I don't think anyone would discourage people going into fields like plumbing or electric work. I do think, however, that the ubiquity of a college degree can get overstated. The amount of Americans over 25 years old with a Bachelor's degree was still just barely north of 30% as of 2013. (It tends to be higher among younger age groups, but not as much as you'd think.) This Wikipedia page links to some census data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States The ideal doesn't have to be that everyone goes to college, but rather that everyone who wants to go to college goes to college. [quote name="GolfLug" url="/t/73521/education-in-the-u-s/0_30#post_968877"] To the OPs point Nordic countries (combine population of 24 million, which is considerably less than a large state in the US like California) have an educational 'program' that is socialized. There are places in US that actually do the same thing. e.g. when I worked in MI some years ago in the automotive industry (big 3), I would frequently have to visit the city of Kalamazoo. They had a great program for retaining 'talent'. Wikipedia quote: "The public schools are managed by Kalamazoo Public Schools. Every resident graduate of the Kalamazoo Public Schools is provided with a scholarship for up to 100% of tuition and mandatory fee costs for four years at any public university or community college in Michigan, starting with the class of 2006. This program is known as the Kalamazoo Promise." [/quote] There are other states that have similar programs. For instance, I graduated high school in Massachusetts in 2010. Because of my MCAS scores, tuition would have been free for me at any MA state school. (That's not only smaller schools like Framingham State or Salem State, but also UMass Amherst, UMass Dartmouth, UMass Boston, etc.) From what I understand, state-wide standardized testing has made that sort of thing more common. On the other hand, because standardized testing tends to be correlated with wealth, you're helping a lot of the people who don't need the help as much.

[boogielicious]

On my phone so I will be brief.

I do not have a college degree. I started working in the plumbing/HVAC trade at the age of 20. At 25 I started a 5 year plumbing apprenticeship. Part of the terms of the apprenticeship was that my employer had to pay me to go to the day school (9 days a semester). I "graduated" with my plumbing degree and had no school debt. I was then promoted into a management position. Wage did not really change, but work conditions are nicer. Our journeyman plumbers all follow a similar route. No school bills and a decent wage ($27-$29 an hour) upon completion. At times, on prevailing wage jobs, they can get paid up to $50 an hour.

I really feel that college is pushed to much these days. It seems less and less people join the trades now. There really is good paying jobs available for people who are willing to work hard and put the time (apprenticeship) in.

Edit: Silhouette man might feel a bit different about the USA's military spending if he was from one of the countries that benefits from it.

The trades are very important.  My father was a plumber who went this route.  He also encouraged my brothers and me not to go this route because we were very good students and had desire to be engineers.  Trade schools have not done a very good job the last few decades recruiting either.  Machinists are in short supply because of this.

It really should depend on what the student in High School wants to do for a living.  This is also the problem.  How many HS students know what they want to do?  Education is paramount to keeping our country and frankly our planet moving forward.

There are many careers than may not need a college degree.  However, many more careers really benefit from four or more years of higher education.

[GolfLug]

Exactly. Point being, there are options. But you surely have to prepare if it is merit based. Merit being you score well or you pay. Absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. BTW, I am a UMass alumni.:-)