Is breaking the rules really bad?

[Shorty]

You hard line rules guys better get used to the fact that we are in a new era. It's not 1960 anymore and never will be again.

cubdog

You mean we are in an era where you don't have to follow the rules and score any way you like?

And you don't want to be made to feel guilty about cheating?

Sorry. I missed the memo.

As far as I am concerned, we are in an era where you add up your score and that's what you get. Still. Not an approximation of it.

Any variation on that is fine, but don't say you have a score and don't pretend to have a handicap.

[Shorty]

According to clubdog. There is a new breed of golfer, and we old fogies better get used to it.

Gimmes are cool.

OB is a one shot penalty with no distance.

Sticklers for the rules  -like those who say a 7 is really a 9 have no place in the new world order.

It's all about attitude and claiming the right to say you play off 5 when really you can't break 90.

All these new players have great etiquette and refuse to play with those who like to play it "old style".

They have the moral high ground too, because they give each other six footers to "save time". It's great!!!

Great picture he paints.

[newtogolf]

I've played with a lot of people who do their best to play with proper etiquette. Most in fact. They usually don't know, or play by, the rules in the strictest sense. I'd rather play with someone who respects their fellow playing companions than someone who belittles others who might not know the rules of the game.

I love golf and it's traditions but I don't get carried away. I want golf to survive. I want courses to prosper. I want future generations to enjoy the game as much as I have for the past 50 years. Times have changed. You hard line rules guys better get used to the fact that we are in a new era. It's not 1960 anymore and never will be again.

cubdog

The hippies of the 60's and 70's didn't like rules and golf survived so I think it will be okay now.  If you aren't playing in a tournament, for money or submitting your score for handicap you can ignore all the rules you like.

[18rounds]

Deep breaths Shorty. The children didn't mean to walk across your lawn. :)

[turtleback]

According to clubdog. There is a new breed of golfer, and we old fogies better get used to it.

Gimmes are cool.

OB is a one shot penalty with no distance.

Sticklers for the rules  -like those who say a 7 is really a 9 have no place in the new world order.

It's all about attitude and claiming the right to say you play off 5 when really you can't break 90.

All these new players have great etiquette and refuse to play with those who like to play it "old style".

They have the moral high ground too, because they give each other six footers to "save time". It's great!!!

Great picture he paints.

Great points.  "I know I took 7 strokes but I really feel like I got more of a 5 on that hole, because that chunked chip really didn't count and I (silently) gave myself that 4 foot putt before I missed it. so put me down for a 5."

[Fourputt]

I've played with a lot of people who do their best to play with proper etiquette. Most in fact. They usually don't know, or play by, the rules in the strictest sense. I'd rather play with someone who respects their fellow playing companions than someone who belittles others who might not know the rules of the game.

I love golf and it's traditions but I don't get carried away. I want golf to survive. I want courses to prosper. I want future generations to enjoy the game as much as I have for the past 50 years. Times have changed. You hard line rules guys better get used to the fact that we are in a new era. It's not 1960 anymore and never will be again.

cubdog

Golf is 400 years old.  Anything that has happened since 1960 is insignificant in the big picture.

[cubdog]

I knew I'd get a response. I also know you guys who disagree with me love golf as much as I do. It's good to see such passion. I still have a hard time with the assumption that someone who plays golf by relaxed rules is also a dishonest person in life. That makes no sense.

By the way I'm not some old hippie. I am a Vietnam Vet. But none of that is important. I don't understand why some of you feel the need to make this personal. Whatever.

cubdog

[boogielicious]

Deep breaths Shorty. The children didn't mean to walk across your lawn. :)

Well played @18rounds , well played.

[newtogolf]

I knew I'd get a response. I also know you guys who disagree with me love golf as much as I do. It's good to see such passion. I still have a hard time with the assumption that someone who plays golf by relaxed rules is also a dishonest person in life. That makes no sense.

By the way I'm not some old hippie. I am a Vietnam Vet. But none of that is important. I don't understand why some of you feel the need to make this personal. Whatever.

cubdog

I didn't see anyone making it personal towards you.  My hippie reference wasn't directed to you personally, I had no idea how old you were.  I was just referencing a group movement from our past that didn't like rules yet golf persevered with its rules intact.

[Fourputt]

I knew I'd get a response. I also know you guys who disagree with me love golf as much as I do. It's good to see such passion. I still have a hard time with the assumption that someone who plays golf by relaxed rules is also a dishonest person in life. That makes no sense.

By the way I'm not some old hippie. I am a Vietnam Vet. But none of that is important. I don't understand why some of you feel the need to make this personal. Whatever.

cubdog

I never said anything about dishonesty.  I only questioned your assumption that someone who ignored the rules would still be good about etiquette.  That hasn't been my experience in my 40 years in the game.  I admit that I didn't really have much of an idea of what good etiquette might consist of until I also took enough interest in the game to begin playing by the rules as I understood them - that was about 30 years ago.  As I learned more about the rules, I also became more interested in all aspects of the game, including the history of golf and of the rules, and respect for the course and for my fellow players.  Most casual players know and care little about etiquette or the rules of golf.  If they become more passionate about the game, they may fix ball marks and divots (although even those simple tasks are not a given), but still don't really understand that there is a lot more to proper etiquette than just that.  It's when a player begins to have some understanding of the rules, and even more, of the basic principles that the rules are founded on, that etiquette in its greater sense begins to impact their on course behavior.

Outside of a competition, I don't demand that a player plays by the rules as strictly as I do.  In my opinion, that would be a breach of etiquette.  I would be showing no respect for the way that he chooses to enjoy the game.  I will quietly counsel a player if he shows poor etiquette, or more likely, I will make a point of demonstrating good etiquette in such away that most players get the message.

I'm not an uptight rules jerk on the course.  I have fun and try not to intrude on the pleasure of other players.  Most people I play with seem to enjoy my company, and I think that is mostly because I play with a pleasant demeanor, and I show good etiquette always.

[MS256]

To say that people that want to play by rules not consistent with the official rules of golf are "cheaters" would be like telling the kids down on the corner lot that they are "cheaters" because they are using "ghost runners", telling guys in D League softball that they are "cheaters" because they have home run limits, or telling the guys down at the city park basketball court that they are "cheaters" because they are playing "make it take it".

They aren't cheating anybody because those are the rules they agreed to play by.

As I've said before I know several games where they mutually agree on the rules they want to play by. They aren't "cheaters" and none of those people would claim to have a legitimate "golf score" in those games. They are just having fun. Very few of them even play any golf outside of their daily money game and have been playing in that game for years. They are the life's blood of the course revenue and without them the course would close.

[GregoryShell]

Ooh I love these.

It is all about having fun. That is a given. I sure don't want to be anywhere near to someone on the golf course who isn't having fun. You probably know what that is like.

> Sorry but I don't think that someone playing golf by their own set of relaxed rules equates to them being a dishonest person.

I didn’t say that someone playing by their own rules equates to them being dishonest people in general. But sometimes you gotta wonder.

Recording anything but the number of strokes it took, is not following the rules and is not good golf etiquette. You can record anything you want. If you want to write 4 when you hit a 6, because you hit a mulligan and don’t want to count it or some other penalty, you can. But what's the point? Is it so you can look back at your score cards years later with friends or your grandson and say look, I hit a 87 at Pecan Hollow, when you really hit a 98? Or maybe you’ll want to say, I can hit a 37 on the back nine at Blackjack, when I use my own special rules, probably not. What is the point of recording a score you know is not accurate? How can you use your scores and watch them over the years as you improved and chart the progress after you changed your swing or club length or loft or whatever? I like doing that and therefore I need my numbers to be as accurate as possible. I mean what is the point of recording your score if you are not being honest and doing it accurately?

You can play by any rules you want, but make sure you tell anyone reading your score card that it is not accurate, because you normally take at least 2 mulligans, regularly improve you lie, putt with the flag in, move the ball out of sand trap, etc... etc...

If you want to record unrealistic scores to make yourself feel better, go ahead, but when I hear you say you shot a par on the that long 4 and I watched you hit the ball 6 times, I will correct you, just like I would expect you to correct me if I miscounted my strokes. And then if you got your panties in a wad and looked like you were going to pop a vessel in your forehead, I wouldn’t say anything to you about it again, but I wouldn’t again record your score either.

<< It seems a bit pompous of you to suggest so.

It’s pompous to suggest that honestly is the best policy when it comes to counting all the strokes you took to get the ball in the cup, specifically when you are recording your scores for later reference? Sorry you feel that way but thanks for letting me know.

>If we were playing a casual round, with nothing at stake other than trying to have a good time, and you tried to keep score for me it would be the last time we play together.

If we are playing a casual round with nothing at stake, why would you not want to be honest about your score?

Everyone makes mistakes and forgets a stroke here or there and can then by accident record the wrong number of strokes or make a mistake when they tell the score keeper.  But that is not what I am talking about.

If I watched you take 4 strokes to get to the green, then 3 putt and then you ask me to write down a 5 and you did this regularly and got upset when questioned, your are darned right we wouldn't play together again.

I think you should always play by the rules and record all of your strokes as accurately as possible if you are keeping score. That is my point.

[cubdog]

To say that people that want to play by rules not consistent with the official rules of golf are "cheaters" would be like telling the kids down on the corner lot that they are "cheaters" because they are using "ghost runners", telling guys in D League softball that they are "cheaters" because they have home run limits, or telling the guys down at the city park basketball court that they are "cheaters" because they are playing "make it take it".

They aren't cheating anybody because those are the rules they agreed to play by.

As I've said before I know several games where they mutually agree on the rules they want to play by. They aren't "cheaters" and none of those people would claim to have a legitimate "golf score" in those games. They are just having fun. Very few of them even play any golf outside of their daily money game and have been playing in that game for years. They are the life's blood of the course revenue and without them the course would close.

Thanks. This is all I'm trying to say. Even the pros I've played with at my local course play by relaxed rules when they tee it up with the members. I have a feeling there was a group or two of weekend hackers in 1860 Scotland that played by their own set of relaxed rules as well.

cubdog

[Zeph]

If you don't keep a handicap or compare scores to others, do whatever you want. It's not cheating and I don't care what you do.

If you keep a handicap and compare scores to others that follow the rules, don't break the rules. Breaking them is cheating.

[cubdog]

If you don't keep a handicap or compare scores to others, do whatever you want. It's not cheating and I don't care what you do.

If you keep a handicap and compare scores to others that follow the rules, don't break the rules. Breaking them is cheating.

It's just that whenever these discussions get going many here seem to assume that ones not following the rules are also trying to pull something over on the rules followers. As far as cheating goes I no longer keep a handicap, if I did I'd play by they rules. I tend to have a bit of faith in other Sandtrap members. I think they would most likely do the right thing if they were keeping a legit handicap for the purpose of playing in sanctioned events. Obviously some here don't share in my faith.

cubdog

[18rounds]

If you don't keep a handicap or compare scores to others, do whatever you want. It's not cheating and I don't care what you do.

If you keep a handicap and compare scores to others that follow the rules, don't break the rules. Breaking them is cheating.

I wonder what % of the golfing population compete in sanctioned events.

From reading on here I am getting the feeling that my usual group may be pretty different than the average group.

We are all pretty bad golfers. All three of us have either started playing in the last few years or started playing on a regular basis in the last 3. We never play in events other than the occasional work related scramble. We don't play for money other than once and a while a closest to the pin on #9 for a round at the turn.

Our rules stay the same but they include.

1. Breakfast ball on first tee.

2. If after going to our drive we find out it is lost we do not go back to the tee box. we drop and count 1 stroke.

3. 1' gimmies. (actually turns out to be 16"

4. We allow not counting practice shots. (So if I miss-hit a shot and we are waiting anyway I will sometimes drop a practice ball and re-try the shot. The practice ball gets picked up and the original bad shot gets played.)

We compete only against ourselves and act more as caddies for each other than competitors. Helping each other with advice on targets and lines and of course unsolicited terrible swing advice. The swing advice is so bad it has the potential of completely jacking up an already tenuous swing. :)

We may not be "normal" but we enjoy the heck out of our golf and I would like to think we are not being too much of a bother at the local courses we play. They seem to be willing to accept our money each weekend.

[18rounds]

I meant to add... As far as I know out etiquette is good. We fix ball marks and divots. We play ready ball and keep up with the group in front of us. We rake sand traps when we use them. We yell fore when we send a shot into the next fairway.

I would like to think that our rules and our etiquette are not related.

[GregoryShell]

> As far as cheating goes I no longer keep a handicap, if I did I'd play by they rules.

If you aren't keeping score you can do whatever you want and that is not cheating. Didn't we go over this already?