Science of the Short Game, Effects of Grooves and Milling on Wedges

[Lihu]

a)  You hit the ball so hard that the milling gets gummed up with pieces of the ball cover?!  Gotta say, I've never heard of that before.  What kind of balls are you using?

b)  Even if I'm reading that right though, a quick brush with a wire brush attached to your bag only takes a second before each shot.

Used Pro V1X. It does not take that much to gum up the Pings, they have microgrooves that pick up material like a file.

I also use the same clubs a lot. Driver, PW, 9i, 8i, 52 degree, 60 degree. I usually like to play easier courses.

Agreed that I could probably just brush before every swing. I usually have time for it, but I don't always have water to help clean the clubs. Maybe I'm just a little bit OCD that way.

I think you're being overzealous again about that Ping feel, @Lihu .

Like @David in FL , I have never heard anything like this.  No offense but, I don't think it's a "feel" thing as much as it's an "imagination" thing.

Nope, not my imagination that I get a plastic layer formed on my clubs. Maybe it's the paint? Who knows, but it's there.

[David in FL]

Used Pro V1X. It does not take that much to gum up the Pings, they have microgrooves that pick up material like a file.

I also use the same clubs a lot. Driver, PW, 9i, 8i, 52 degree, 60 degree. I usually like to play easier courses.

Agreed that I could probably just brush before every swing. I usually have time for it, but I don't always have water to help clean the clubs. Maybe I'm just a little bit OCD that way.

Nope, not my imagination that I get a plastic layer formed on my clubs. Maybe it's the paint? Who knows, but it's there.

When you say "used" ProV1x, are you talking refurbished?  Painted or some sort of refinish?

[cipher]

Nope, not my imagination that I get a plastic layer formed on my clubs. Maybe it's the paint? Who knows, but it's there.

Gotta back @Lihu up on this...a bit.  Especially with range balls I will get a layer you can pretty much peel off between the grooves.  I get this on all my clubs though.  It is not just clubs with micro grooves, but all my irons.  Does it affect anything?  I don't think so.

[Lihu]

When you say "used" ProV1x, are you talking refurbished?  Painted or some sort of refinish?

No, I get them from the course baskets and ball mongers for about $1.50 each. I usually check them and they do look pretty good.

BTW, @Golfingdad another thing is that I don't swing very fast, but I tend to use less than 20% of the face so stuff accumulates in the same spot.

Gotta back Lihu up on this...a bit.  Especially with range balls I will get a layer you can pretty much peel off between the grooves.  I get this on all my clubs though.  It is not just clubs with micro grooves, but all my irons.  Does it affect anything?  I don't think so.

IDK, it is probably just a feel/imagination thing that it affects the shot? It just feels gummy like when you get sticky grease on your hands.

[David in FL]

No, I get them from the course baskets and ball mongers for about $1.50 each. I usually check them and they do look pretty good.

BTW, @Golfingdad another thing is that I don't swing very fast, but I tend to use less than 20% of the face so stuff accumulates in the same spot.

I got nuthin'......

[Golfingdad]

Gotta back @Lihu up on this...a bit.  Especially with range balls I will get a layer you can pretty much peel off between the grooves.  I get this on all my clubs though.  It is not just clubs with micro grooves, but all my irons.  Does it affect anything?  I don't think so.

Yeah, I wasn't really disagreeing with @Lihu on the fact that he gets gunk on the club from the ball ... that happens to me sometimes as well ... but I was just teasing him about the idea that he can FEEL it happening.  ....

It might be just a feel thing, but when I have a freshly cleaned club it feels so much more "grippy" than when playing the back 9.

The Ping i20 have those milled grooves, and it really feels like it's gripping the ball for the draw.

[cipher]

Yeah, I wasn't really disagreeing with @Lihu on the fact that he gets gunk on the club from the ball ... that happens to me sometimes as well ... but I was just teasing him about the idea that he can FEEL it happening.  ....

No argument from me there!  Sounds like it would make for a cool "Ping, the most gripping feeling clubs ever" thread though.

[Lihu]

No Argument from me there!  Sounds like it would make for a cool "Ping, the most gripping feeling clubs ever" thread though.

We should start a thread about Pings. . .

Mizunos feel buttery, but Pings are "Grippier".

Does Ping want to sponsor this new thread?

[boogielicious]

You can also just spray some WD-40 on your wedge just before your shot?

WD-40 would not have the same effect and you could not control the thickness of the coating.  I was thinking more like the coating on non-stick pans.  I can't see how this would not affect spin, but I am just making the assumption that there has to be some friction effect from the surface and not just the grooves.  It may have a finite limit, but a mirror smooth steel surface would have a lower coefficient of friction than a milled surface.

[Lihu]

WD-40 would not have the same effect and you could not control the thickness of the coating.  I was thinking more like the coating on non-stick pans.  I can't see how this would not affect spin, but I am just making the assumption that there has to be some friction effect from the surface and not just the grooves.  It may have a finite limit, but a mirror smooth steel surface would have a lower coefficient of friction than a milled surface.

I was partially joking about the WD-40, and agree that it seems like this would affect the spin on the ball.

Otherwise, it seems like no one would have incentive to put dimples and grooves on the clubs. Take a look at some historical clubs. My guess is the long irons were smooth, and the short one has those dimple like marks on the face.

[mvmac]

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2014/5/to-go-milled-or-not-milled

As you can see the club that had surface milling or roughness actually generated less spin - 6009 RPM to 6229 RPM. While the difference between the two is negligible and most golfers would have a hard time telling the difference between the ball flight of one versus the other (myself included), the result is significant to me in that I firmly believed the outcome would be reversed.

As you can see this clubface with both grooves and surface roughness generated the highest spin rates of all three clubs. This leads me to believe that grooves play a larger, more important role on cleanly struck shots than I originally thought.

[cipher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/andrew-rice-golf/2014/5/to-go-milled-or-not-milled

Wow, cool that he admitted that, especially after he said the opposite in the wedge project.  Respect.  Thanks for sharing that Mike!

Quote From A. Rice:

I must be honest and write that I did this test in the hopes of proving a few people wrong. Instead, I have proven myself wrong.

[Ernest Jones]

Wow, cool that he admitted that, especially after he said the opposite in the wedge project.  Respect.  Thanks for sharing that Mike!

That is cool. I have a lot of respect for Rice and was a little disappointed by how that was playing out. Now someone needs to take away his TWITter account. :-P

[golfnz34me]

That link is not surprising to me, given that he was hitting essentially half-swing wedge shots.  Even at 50 yards the ball is compressed enough the engage the grooves, making the milling essentially irrelevant.  Where I would expect the milling to help is on the short pitch/chip shots where the ball is not compressed enough for the grooves to have much affect.

[Pretzel]

That link is not surprising to me, given that he was hitting essentially half-swing wedge shots.  Even at 50 yards the ball is compressed enough the engage the grooves, making the milling essentially irrelevant.  Where I would expect the milling to help is on the short pitch/chip shots where the ball is not compressed enough for the grooves to have much affect.

I'd watch out for using the term compression when what you really mean is deformation.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/73892/compression-vs-deformation-and-other-words

The grooves though have a purpose different than from what you describe, at least to the best of my knowledge. I believe the grooves are designed more to create spin out of lies that would otherwise provide sub-standard spinrates by channeling water and dirt off of the clubface where the ball is contacting. I could be wrong though.

[Groundhog34]

"Never" is a strong word.